The Official Wii U Thread (Nintendo Network IDs here!)

[Carnivol]

sure they are just pumping out sequels, but i don't see anything wrong with that. :/

The "thing" with Nintendo and sequels was pretty well explained recently when they were inquired about new IPs and why they keep on "playing it safe" with Mario, Zelda, Meroid, etc.. They tend to consider the gameplay mechanics as their "new IP" and then apply whatever character set they feel works best with it, rather than just do the same gameplay experience, reskinned with a "new IP" character set (Which is how a lot of failed mascots have occured from various devs; "We should make a game about a magical skateboarding platypus!")

[Canas Renvall]

^ This is backed up with evidence like Starfox Adventures. It was Dinosaur Planet until Shiggy saw gameplay of the main character, a fox, and said they should make it a Starfox title. They use their IPs and instead change up the gameplay. That way if they have a flop, they can still revert back to what worked in previous titles in the series and try again. And people act like Nintendo only has like two IPs... they have more than most companies to begin with.

[Carnivol]

Best are the people complaining about "milking" of a specific series. Like the New Super Mario Bros. series. There are two and a half year between the original release and the Wii version, then 3 more years before the 3DS sequel to the DS game, followed by the Wii U sequel to the Wii game, spanning a total period of roughly six and a half year for 4 games on 4 platforms. So those are actually more spread out and restricted in terms of platform exclusivity and such than Super Mario Bros. 1-3 + World + Land 1-2 (Which are scattered out over a period of six and a half year, 3 platforms, and 6 titles).

As for 3D Land; by the time 3D World comes out, it'll be about two years since 3D Land came out.

I'd say that as long as Nintendo's titles manage to sell as much and well as they do, over such an extended amount of time as they do; Nintendo are free to keep on serving that "milk", 'cause at least they deliver.

[Canas Renvall]

The problem I think stems from the fact that... quite simply, Mario has just been around for so long and been so damn successful that people see his vast array of titles and forget that it's not like Assassin's Creed, which started in 2007 and is already on its sixth main entry (Brotherhood and Revelations do count as main entries). Then they see that Mario has like five billion titles and they scream "MILK MILK MILK" but they tend to forget that Mario has had almost thirty years to build up that repertoire. Same with Zelda. And Metroid. And Kirby. It's not that they're milked, it's that they've just been around so long that people see the mass of titles they've been in and just automatically scream "milking".

[Wrathborne]

Nintendo has been saying they got a new franchise coming out...be nice to see something not Mario, Metroid, StarFox, Zelda, or Smash bros from them.

[Code_R]

When was the last time they created a new IP though, Gamecube era with Pikmin and Animal Crossing? But they generally release no more than two per console counting handhelds, I don't see any milking

[Dracarys]

The Mario problem is oversaturation. They print his face on almost everything, even stuff where it isn't needed. Is like they have no faith anymore in a game to stand on its own two legs based on gameplay, so just stick Mario on it. When 70% of the games a major publisher puts out feature the same characters, same environments, same worlds and so on people get tired of it. They want variety.

It also doesn't help that their games do not play differently, NSMB, NSMBWii, NSMB2 and NSMBU may as well be clones or expansion packs, oh right, New Super Luigi U, forgot that is coming. SMB1, 2, 3 and World all played very differently.

When is the last time Nintendo made something that played different because of the game design and not because of hardware?

[Canas Renvall]

^ SMB1 and 2 played almost identical to one another with Luigi jumping higher and sliding more being the only difference.

Oh you mean SMB2USA

[Code_R]

Since this isn't Japan I think you mean Super Mario Bros: The Lost Levels

The thing is really a problem with audience perception, they've got really good RPGs, 3D adventures, racing games and sidescrollers - but these are all "just more Mario games". Should some of this stuff be replaced by new IP characters? It's a shame they let other titles suffer though. I wanted a good sequel to Starfox 64, or a real follow up to the older Metroid games in the style of the last one which was... Zero Mission?

[Canas Renvall]

^ Oh, I meant that toward her comment that SMB1 and 2 play extremely differently when in reality, the REAL SMB2 and the original are almost identical, even down to the graphics themselves with some minor tweaks in Lost Levels.

I was being a bit snarky in saying "Oh, you meant 1 and 2USA play differently".

[Dracarys]

The Lost levels isn't even the same game as the japanese SMB2, it is remake with various differences.

[Canas Renvall]

Hence why I said 1 and 2 are nearly identical, along with the differences added in Lost Levels.

[Carnivol]

It also doesn't help that their games do not play differently, NSMB, NSMBWii, NSMB2 and NSMBU may as well be clones or expansion packs, oh right, New Super Luigi U, forgot that is coming. SMB1, 2, 3 and World all played very differently.

NSMB was more or less just a "return to formula" for 2D Mario games after pretty much a decade without any "classic" games. Utilizing accelleration and jump physics and move set of the 3D games instead of the classic ones. (along with a couple of new power ups)

NSMBWii main difference here were the more complex level design (more "living" stage design, with more moving elements and such), new power ups (again, people really underrestimate how these affects the playstyle/experience), re-implemented Yoshi, and the 4 player co-op functionality (with player collision to boot). Also added the fantastic tutorial/help mode.

NSMB2 more is more or less the one with the least changes/updates to the core design, but focused on game modes instead; also the first to include DLC support.

NSMBU introduced new power ups again (giving wall attach, float, double-jump, in a different way to how it was previously done with, say, the cape in World), even more complex level design than any previous Mario game, GamePad integration (which introduces a pretty cool co-op feature, much more involving and cooperative than the star collector function in Galaxy), additional challenge modes, etc.

NSLU is of course "just" a DLC pack for NSMBU, but tweaks jump physics to full usage of luigi physics (w/slight twist of Yoshi's levitation), adds new game modes, has 80+ "star world"-ish levels.


If you look at the original set and what they added in terms of gameplay changes;

MB -> SMB - Added horizontal scrolling, power ups, jump on enemies mechanic, secret blocks and secret exits, and the jump physics that've become the template for the later games.
SMB -> SMB2 (JP) - Death mushroom and unique Mario/Luigi jump and movement physics. Upped difficulty.
SMB -> SMB2 (US/EU) - Vertical scrolling. Bonus mini-games at the end of level/between levels. Boss variety. Pick up and throw objects.
SMB 2 -> SMB3 - Mixed scrolling (both horizontal and vertical), new power ups, world map, alternate routes/secret levels,
SMB3 -> World - New power ups (Leaf replaced by feather, but in general less power ups than SMB3), yoshi

Go to the advanced/DX re-releases and you've also got the Yoshi Coin and Red Coin challenges added to them.

Not exactly the world's biggest changelist beyond the cosmetics, so I don't see how people see those as doing things RADICALLY different from the NSMB series ;D

[Dracarys]

You forget visual changes, can tell SMB1/2/3/W apart from just looking at a screenshot. Different art styles, different environments.

NSMB series however...

Spoiler:

show spoiler

[Carnivol]

Guess I ultimatey ended up proving what I wanted to prove regarding people's criticism of the Mario games. Thanks for being my test subject.

There were two elements I deliberately didn't touch in my previous post... they were;
A:
Spoiler:

show spoiler

Graphics - No actual relevance to Gameplay in a Mario title, what-so-ever. Funnily enough, music does. NSMB utilizes a classic Mario look, NSMBWii adds slight World design, NSMB2 adds Mario 3 designs, and NSMBU adds more World designs.

and ...

B:
Spoiler:

show spoiler

Enemies - I mentioned bosses, but I mentioned nothing about the selection of enemies that's changed and been expanded upon in the NSMB games and how they offer new challenges, along with the new suits, level designs, etc.. And, of course, the thing I mentioned at the end of A; music in the NSMB series is tied up to enemy behavior patterns

I find it odd that you'd go for picking on the graphics when such an important element as enemies and their AI/behavior plays such a major role in how you play the game. But then again, I guess stuff like this is why some people pay fortunes for texture packs and character skins in games and feel that they are the total game changers. All about the looks and what not.