E3 2013

[Member_of_STARS]

Haven't dug into details, but Carn, the whole 24hourloginpleaseoncemkay deal. What about that?

[Gradon]

The thing is, this whole DRM situation is the exact same on PS3. Nothing has changed. They're allowing stuff like online passes and Atlus region locking Persona 4: Arena. I don't see the big deal.

[[STARS]TyranT]

EDIT: Okay Tratten has already clarified what he meant, this is better.

"Similar to PS3, we will not dictate the online used game strategy (the ability to play used games online) of its publishing partners. As announced last night, PS4 will not have any gating restrictions for used disc-based games."

Dan Race, senior director, corporate communications for Sony, Tretton’s statements were “referring specifically to playing used games online”

So that clears that up then, rather hastily thank fuck. Similar to the PS3's and such, and it's nice to see SONY finally giving up the online pass.

[Carnivol]

Haven't dug into details, but Carn, the whole 24hourloginpleaseoncemkay deal. What about that?

When are you not ever logged in once a day? I know there are places that're still a bit behind, especially on the bandwidth, but google's even got branded blimps scheduled for covering miles upon miles worth of sand with mobile data coverage.

As of next year, I'd dare say that if I'm without online access in any such amount of time that it seriously prohibits me from playing a game on my One, I'll probably have bigger concerns to worry about than not being able to play games.


Hilariously enough, the whole "DRM" for retail titles is basically something that's come at the request of the userbase, praising Steam for making their games library disc less and easier to bring "anywhere". (And even so far, as far as "pre-owned sales/locking" goes, MS already pointed out that it's up to publishers to do this)

People worry about too many what ifs when it comes to these things. "Bu bu bu what if it gets delisted/removed?" <- Well, on the 360, any purchase you've ever made, delisted or not (death of publisher, retracted from marketplace, etc.), can still be redownloaded from through your purchase history..

A lot of it is basically being paranoid about buying a car, 'cause you might get hit by another car or not get an insurance, fearing the insurance company wont side with you.

[Dracarys]

That's not very different from most titles like Call of Duty, Battlefield, Assassin's Creed and Halo. At least Nintendo has many exclusive titles, Xbone has Halo and what the PS4 has now that FF and Kingdom Hearts aren't exclusive?

Sony putting out plenty of exclusives including new and old IPs, Infamous Second Son, Driveclub, The Order 1886, Puppeteer, Killzone: Shadowfall, Knack. That all first party. Plus Last of Us this week, Beyond: Two Souls later, Tearaway, Killzone Mercenaries.

Sony have only annouced their launch period titles, day one and first quarter 2014. They said this is all they wanted to. It is all they needed to, the price and used game thing won them E3 alone. Naughty Dog have another team doing something, Santa Monica another team, Guerilla Games another team, plus lots of other studios or teams that have announced nothing and not released anything for a long while, plenty more to come.

[ProjectNight]

But with the door now being left open for Third Party devs to do 'what they want', who's to say an unlock code for the game to work isn't out of the question, even for disc based games.

Sure - it might actually boot and load, if you will, but the devs (and you can bet Ubi and EA most certainly) could be potentially lock any of the content on that disc behind a PSN key or something. Quoting Trettan "The DRM decision is going to have to be in the hands of the third parties, that's not something we're going to dictate or control or mandate or implement."

This is like PS3 and Xbox360 (Battlefield, EA, online pass, you know...), not like Xbox One.

[[STARS]TyranT]

Yeah Sony have clarified it not so long ago - just online only.

One of the main things I did feel a tinge of disappoint from Sony wise, was that ThatGameCompany didn't announce anything. Was really hoping they were going have a PS4 launch game waiting in the wings.

And no WipEout... RIP Studio Liverpool

[Rombie]

The devs can choose the required signature to console but seemingly Microsoft enforces the policy that if you do so it has to be checked once per day. The latter of course doesn't happen without the former. The difference I guess is with region locks and more dev power Microsoft saw this as a key benefit which backfired. That and their own games will also implement it unlike Sony's studio titles.

Given the fact the PS4 is region less I suspect any pubs silly enough to make their PS4 game registered also won't be a times check just a one off akin to old PC models simply because the region less nature makes it unsure where it will be used. Unless you made it region locked and had that DRM together.

History of the PS3's lack of region lock against the 360 where pubs would have one version on PS3 playable anywhere but the 360 version not (which never made sense to me) may continue with XB One locked and DRM'ed while the PS4 version doesn't have a thing. As silly as it is.

Steam as a comment on DRM is interesting. Consoles are treated differently and Steam still allows offline play, account access and install on any PC as long as you have the time, as well as prices which seem to make any registrations pointless. If Microsoft said were going to implement DRM but games are going to be as cheap as those found elsewhere like Steam because of reduction in second hand markets I think the backlash may have been reduced.

[Rombie]

People worry about too many what ifs when it comes to these things. "Bu bu bu what if it gets delisted/removed?" <- Well, on the 360, any purchase you've ever made, delisted or not (death of publisher, retracted from marketplace, etc.), can still be redownloaded from through your purchase history..

Sorry for the double post but on my phone and editing and quoting was proving an issue.

This is a very interesting point. But you're wrong. For on the 360 this is true but if you move to the One it is not.

Microsoft had already stated any purchases on your account for the 360 of XBL Arcade titles other than any video content won't work on the One simply because its a different platform.

https://www.engadget.com/2013/05/21/xbox-one-backwards-compatible/

Sony hasn't specifically noted what it's policy will be about old content other than eventually titles will hopefully be playable via cloud hosting opening a back catalog of all platforms to both PS3 and PS4 owners. How this links into your downloads you already have purchased remains to be seen. I suspect the same will be true and most of the stuff you can install on your PS3 just won't work either.

The point is digital files and multiplayer server life have a limited life. But it's also why buying a physical disc and then having to digitally register it upsets so many. You can understand it much easily with a digital title. Unless MS kills their DRM check in the decade to come sometime those physical copies will eventually be pointless. Your PS4 might still run in 15 years and you will know already the SP content will be fine. MS is still a gamble unless you know some day you will retain the right to even play Halo 5 or whatever in 2030 should you choose to.

On one level playing a 15 year old game or whatever doesn't matter to many but again its the aftermarket of second hand and loss of feeling of ownership that probably is the bigger deal. I can still buy and play a copy of Super Mario from the 1980's with no problem. Buying and playing that XB1 game in a decade from now however...

[Carnivol]

The "problem" with the offline mode in Steam is that it requires you to PLAN your offline usage. You need to activate offline mode whilst online. So it's not really much of a valid counter argument when people use "sudden outtage" as their argument for why a 24h clock in is a "problem" on the One (or 1h if you're on a system that's not yours)

Sorry for the double post but on my phone and editing and quoting was proving an issue.

This is a very interesting point. But you're wrong. For on the 360 this is true but if you move to the One it is not.

Microsoft had already stated any purchases on your account for the 360 of XBL Arcade titles other than any video content won't work on the One simply because its a different platform.

I'm not talking about Backwards Compatibility, I'm talking about the mere fact that people honestly expects their games to just magically vanish the same way DLC for the original Xbox got terminated as a "service" on your LIVE account when they pulled the plug on OG LIVE. Currently, delisting of content on the 360 Marketplace only removes the option to purchase it (but can still be tied to an account via pre-existing redeem codes for that product and also redownloaded through your purchase history of your account). Sure, you wont be able to play it on the One, at least not as long as they don't seem to consider any backwards compatibility (seems like their "solution" is "buy both 360 and One, utilize the passthrough to save some cable spaghetti"). I see people expect MS to just suddenly "terminate" their games for the new platform, so they can't access them or something.



The bigger "curiosity" is of course the longetivity of the cloud. That's the only true concern one could have as far as "playing your games in 30 years" goes. But then again, just like you have hoops you can jump through to play most other old stuff today, surely tech will keep up (even if things gets a bit more fancy these days). (I must say,though, humanity as a whole is getting closer and closer to a state of overpreservation - to the point where every fart needs to be jarred and every thought logged)

[Rombie]

The "problem" with the offline mode in Steam is that it requires you to PLAN your offline usage. You need to activate offline mode whilst online. So it's not really much of a valid counter argument when people use "sudden outtage" as their argument for why a 24h clock in is a "problem" on the One (or 1h if you're on a system that's not yours)

Agree but personally my point wasn't about the unexpected outage, its just that Steam provides that option where the XB1 won't. If I could run an offline mode for a game or a couple of games so for example I could take my Xbox on the road with me for a holidays to play in a cabin if it rains even if said cabin had no Internet (and possibly no cell cover). And that's with the rest of the required DRM.

However I just don't see the point also of providing physical media then not just having the fact the media is in the device a good enough reason not to trust I am legit in my purchases. Piracy is real yes, but thats punishing the majority of buyers. Especially early adopters. That is insulting on some level which also upsets people.

As I said too people expect it of Steam too. It's an unfair double standard but its merits come from the fact Steam is its own thing and PC owners have had it for the better part of a decade. It also wasn't lacking in complaints in early days and still every now and then. Plus as I mentioned the prices and sales sometimes negate the pitfalls for others. But physical or digital I find it hard to believe publishers will charge less for console games anytime soon. So that doesn't match either.

It's not that I don't think this would happen eventually (personally I think that's when consoles are digital only affairs) but console trends just seem to happen. They don't when they're forced and feel counter to the industry and MS maybe forced this one gen too early. This feels like them jamming in a square peg to a round hole. The absurd also thing is Sony proved it. They stayed mostly status quo and everyone went nuts in reaction. Why when it was what the standard the PS3 had. But that's it, consoles are consoles and PC's are PC's. Microsoft trying to close that gap just didn't sit well with the scores of people who play console games because they're not PC, they're not Steam, and they don't have the restrictive policies that make you feel like you're doing all the leg work on a game you want to play.

Sony might be gilding the lily a bit on the DRM issue and grandstanding the results in their conf but obviously there is an underlying issue that has come through from MS's plan. Clearly this is not the time yet for DRM on consoles.

I'm not talking about Backwards Compatibility, I'm talking about the mere fact that people honestly expects their games to just magically vanish the same way DLC for the original Xbox got terminated as a "service" on your LIVE account when they pulled the plug on OG LIVE. Currently, delisting of content on the 360 Marketplace only removes the option to purchase it (but can still be tied to an account via pre-existing redeem codes for that product and also redownloaded through your purchase history of your account). Sure, you wont be able to play it on the One, at least not as long as they don't seem to consider any backwards compatibility (seems like their "solution" is "buy both 360 and One, utilize the passthrough to save some cable spaghetti"). I see people expect MS to just suddenly "terminate" their games for the new platform, so they can't access them or something.

Sorry then I misunderstood. You are correct and of course as long as you still have your 360, or your PS3, then yeah that content is there. I think both companies are ruling out any BC as far as console base goes indeed. But I would assume that on new platforms would be the same as once you buy it for your XB1 or PS4 its there as long as you have your account. Why people think otherwise is beyond me.

The bigger "curiosity" is of course the longetivity of the cloud. That's the only true concern one could have as far as "playing your games in 30 years" goes. But then again, just like you have hoops you can jump through to play most other old stuff today, surely tech will keep up (even if things gets a bit more fancy these days). (I must say,though, humanity as a whole is getting closer and closer to a state of overpreservation - to the point where every fart needs to be jarred and every thought logged)

Haha very true. My hope is that both companies or hell all eventually just make the various cloud platforms a standard by which you get all games so that there is always the ability to tap into old games especially if in another gen games are digital only. But you also make me think that perhaps the short term loss of one consoles future is missing the point of a future where that may apply to all platforms and that without physical copies especially certain games will be lost forever. In some cases that jar analogy might fly but then you're also risking the loss off the occasional classic. Of course also that's entirely subjective at times as well. ;)

[Dracarys]

The devs can choose the required signature to console but seemingly Microsoft enforces the policy that if you do so it has to be checked once per day. The latter of course doesn't happen without the former. The difference I guess is with region locks and more dev power Microsoft saw this as a key benefit which backfired. That and their own games will also implement it unlike Sony's studio titles.

Given the fact the PS4 is region less I suspect any pubs silly enough to make their PS4 game registered also won't be a times check just a one off akin to old PC models simply because the region less nature makes it unsure where it will be used. Unless you made it region locked and had that DRM together.

http://allthingsd.com/20130611/five-questions-about-the-ps4-for-sonys-jack-tretton/

Any game that is made for PS4 that is physical goods, whether first-party or third-party, can go into a PS4 and play regardless of where it came from. The first player will play it, no problem, the second player will play it, no problem. What I was referring to was the online proposition. [The example was later given to me: If you buy a used disc from GameStop, you’ll have no problem popping that disc in and playing it from your PlayStation 4. The issue may arise when you try to jump online and play with other players. At that point, a third-party publisher may impose a fee or not allow that.]

The easiest way to explain it is — if you understand how it works on PlayStation 3, then that’s the same way it will work on PlayStation 4. No changes there. We’ve been out for six and a half years. It’s the same experience.


---

So no fear of any publisher selling a game with a one use code for the entire thing, online passes are the worst anyone gets on PS4 and the biggest offender, EA, have ditched them.

[Rombie]

Cheers Dracarys, I saw the other online only comments after I replied earlier because I posted it before stupidly reading the last half dozen posts in the thread.

Personally the online pass system has never bothered me. Online by choice is completely fine by me. If there is some pay gate beyond Plus then I will just be as selective as I already am with my MP choices.

Another question I have for MS if I could is how they thought a level of DRM for Xbox was such a good idea after the disaster that has been the content management with Games for Windows Live. Even though PC only gamers seem slightly more tolerant of DRM even they have their lines and clearly Microsoft is clueless about this. Once again forcing it down the pipe rather than working out a non-direct and intrusive measure.

[ProjectNight]

EA Denies Asking Microsoft For Used Games DRM

http://kotaku.com/ea-denies-asking-microsoft-for-used-games-drm-512779915

The natural assumption to make when confronted with Microsoft's used game restrictions is to blame video game publishers. They're the ones who went to war with GameStop over used game resales, they're the ones who instituted online passes, they're the ones who stand to benefit from anything that can make people buy games new (where they make money) instead of used (where GameStop makes all the money).

According to EA's Peter Moore, however, one of the world's biggest publishers had no part in Microsoft's decision whatsoever.

Asked by Polygon whether EA had lobbied Microsoft to implement the restrictions, Moore replied, "Absolutely incorrect. As the guy who is the chief operating officer of Electronic Arts I can tell you that EA did not aggressively lobby for the platform holders to put some gating function in there to allow or disallow used games. I am on record as being a proponent of used games."

"EA has never had a conversation", he later adds, "and I have been present at all of them, with all of the manufacturers, saying you must put a system in place that allows us to take a piece of the action or even stop it. Absolutely incorrect."
Related
Ubisoft Says "We Still Haven't Decided" Over Xbox One Pre-Owned Games

The Xbox One will only allow the sale of used games if the publisher of a specific game allows it. What do publishers, less than six months out from… Read…

He's also asked how EA would be supporting the two competing platforms different used games strategies, replying "We have not internally even begun to sit down and answer those questions." Again, as with Ubisoft, a weird answer given how close we are to these system's release.

[BBboy20]

Microsoft account transition to local currency
THE FUCK IS THIS SHIT!?

You will begin using local currency or an Xbox Gift Card (denominated in your local currency) to buy music, games, videos, and more from your favorite Xbox stores. When you use your existing Microsoft Points to initiate a purchase or redeem a Points card with your Microsoft account later this year, we’ll deposit into your account an amount of money equal to or greater than the marketplace value of your Microsoft Points, and your Microsoft Points will be retired. The purchased funds you deposit into your account after the transition will not expire. However, the funds we deposit into your account at the time of the transition will expire one year from the deposit date.

How can anybody still want a Zero after reading that!?