Max Payne 3 Announced

[A-J]

It doesnt hold any water. You probably dont know 99% of the names involved with your own favourite franchise, the only exceptions being the director and maybe the producer. People are always stretching for straws once they start talking about "changed crew".

I probably don't know everyone by name, but i know that the good lads who made the first two games have absolutely nothing to do with it, and a completely different team is handling this one, you know, like Double Helix and SH Homecoming. How'd that turn out again ?

If I were to describe you in technical detail, the changes in gameplay, atmosphere, pacing, objectives and how the game plays from A to B, it would take me too much time. Ive made a youtube video twice now, showcasing how RE4 does not use "tank controls", but instead uses chopped FPS controls and that tank controls have always been about fixed viewpoints. Im not going to do this again. Just throwing a comparison with an RC vehicle out there.

care to link us to that video ? because as far as my common eyes can see, it's the same style of control mechanics just placed in a more open world.

the hacked videos dot made with the fixed camera angles looked so natural, because the controls are already pretty similar, bar the ability to aim in 3D.

The issue with the original voice actor... I would have thought gamers had at least as much common sense to see that if someone ages past a point, he would need a different voice. Even if that isnt the real reason, it would still be plausible.

wat ? solid snake sounds exactly the same based on around 10~15 years of his "game life". An adult's voice doesn't change after every few years lol

talk about common sense :p

Would you like me to give you a list of my favourite franchises turned into mainstream garbage, which are technically and conceptually dumbed down and just trash, yet sold so well that they are getting sequels left and right?

uh .. sure ?

Thats my point precisely. "Its cool for some games, not for others"

Hence, hypocrisy.

but how does that qualify as hypocrisy or irony lol, we're skeptical of it because it seems to be completely different from what made the series good, and it's being outsourced to a completely different development team.

People were skeptical when Konami did that with Silent Hill, handed it off to a completely different dev team, and that ended up being a bad decision.

You keep throwing the word out, pointing fingers at us all, but you're not being clear about it lol.

How's about if I call you a hypocrite, because you've already admitted to not being a fan of the series, but you're suddenly defending max payne 3's changes so righteously.

[Mr_Zombie]

It doesnt hold any water. You probably dont know 99% of the names involved with your own favourite franchise, the only exceptions being the director and maybe the producer. People are always stretching for straws once they start talking about "changed crew".

Why should I know every one in the team? I gave you an example - Silent Hill 4 vs Silent Hill: Homecoming. The first one was made by the team (however, not everyone from SH4 team was involved in making of previous SH games) and even though it was a completely different, it still had the feeling of previous games. SH:H was a SH made "by the book" - yet it doesn't feel like a SH game.

Another example - Core Design's Tomb Raider vs Crystal Dynamic's Tomb Raider. To go even further - Tomb Raider 1 vs Tomb Raider: Anniversary -- the same story, levels, characters, enemies etc, yet you can definitely say which game's whose.

Naught Dog's Crash Bandicoot games vs other developer's Crash games - still, you can tell the difference.

That's also why lots of people are worried about MGS:Rising when it was announced that it won't be a Kojima's game and it will be done by a younger team.

I could give you more examples how games, when turned into other developer's hand, changed style, gameplay etc. So even if you can't name everyone on the team, the sheer fact that the same team is doing the game is comforting because every team has its own style and approach.

The issue with the original voice actor... I would have thought gamers had at least as much common sense to see that if someone ages past a point, he would need a different voice.

Old Snake says "Hi".

[Member_of_STARS]

I probably don't know everyone by name, but i know that the good lads who made the first two games have absolutely nothing to do with it, and a completely different team is handling this one, you know, like Double Helix and SH Homecoming. How'd that turn out again ?

Would you like me to ask Red Storm Entertainment on how Tom Clancy titles turned out after the dev. group was assimilated into Ubi and most of the people left it? Completely altered the experience of the game, from top to bottom. Everything changed around, yet it made millions R6V games were one of the most played games on XBL.

How about Twisted Metal Black and 989 studios? It was a commercial and conceptual success, despite the fact that the franchise was no longer in the original owners and creators posession.

Then theres one of my favourite racing games. Burnout series, which concept was turned around completely after the second installation. The studio was disbanded after the second game and the rights were turned over to EA. The games became unrecognizable and I personally despise the lack of originality and creativity in them. Yet, the games made millions, are one of the most critically acclaimed racers to date and for all intents and purposes, turned out just fine.

Youre deviating from the point, which is- hypocrisy.

On one hand, the community has made it clear that changes arent always bad, if they bring commercial success and the games become critically acclaimed. It has nothing to do with how much the team has or has not been involved with the games. Just because Max Payne 3 is not made with Sammi Järvi in its helm, doesnt mean the game will suck and be bad*.

I feel for you, I honestly do. But youre trying to take my fun out of this situation.

You should probably by now realize that Im playing the devils advocate, and what my stance is when it comes to franchises, established directions, dev groups and complete makeovers.

I do not approve MP3, I disapprove the doublestandards its fanbase and this community has.

care to link us to that video ? because as far as my common eyes can see, it's the same style of control mechanics just placed in a more open world.

Ive made it twice and twice I have removed it from my Youtube channel. The basic premise is using a tank in Battlefield 2, and 3 different external views to make it clear how RE4 cant be seen as a game with "tank controls", as its much different compared to the older games. Just because the game lacks strafing function, doesnt mean it has tank controls. Previous RE games were critisized because the character was often lead around with mirrored controls, depending on whether it was moving away from, or towards the player. RE4 never had that problem.

the hacked videos dot made with the fixed camera angles looked so natural, because the controls are already pretty similar, bar the ability to aim in 3D.

If I was to code Leons character off the screen, youd see it as an FPS and play it as one.

wat ? solid snake sounds exactly the same based on around 10~15 years of his "game life". An adult's voice doesn't change after every few years lol

wut wut wut?

The common sense is that you dont need the same voice actor to make the game successful and I used an *example* how you would explain away the lack of the VA you were used to. It was *an example*, not a statement. I hate to be the one spoonfeeding you, so how about you get those common sense goggles out and start at least pretending that youe reading what Im writing.

Mr. Zombie. Most of RE cast say "h2u2".

but how does that qualify as hypocrisy or irony lol, we're skeptical of it because it seems to be completely different from what made the series good, and it's being outsourced to a completely different development team.

Because youve shown that you had no problem with any other changed franchises so far (at least not that Ive seen), and given what Ive picked up so far, you were content with RE4 aswell.

How's about if I call you a hypocrite, because you've already admitted to not being a fan of the series, but you're suddenly defending max payne 3's changes so righteously.

That doesnt make me a hypocrite. Take out your dusty Websters.

[Darkmoon]

There is a big difference here though. No one's saying it's going to suck because it's a new team. What they're saying is it's gonna suck because from the images and details released they've taken some of the cosmetic elements that made the game what it was and thrown them out the window. In the same maner that, for example, I didn't get overly hyped about RE5. It was a game with Resident Evil on it but for me, personally, it wasn't an RE game. Almost all the elements that made me love the series were gone.

The same complaints would be here if the people who made the first two were making this one, but then I doubt they would make these decisions. And I doubt Max would now look like Barry Burton and Bruce Willis hideous bastard love child.

[Member_of_STARS]

There is a big difference here though. No one's saying it's going to suck because it's a new team. What they're saying is it's gonna suck because from the images and details released they've taken some of the cosmetic elements that made the game what it was and thrown them out the window. In the same maner that, for example, I didn't get overly hyped about RE5. It was a game with Resident Evil on it but for me, personally, it wasn't an RE game. Almost all the elements that made me love the series were gone.

The same complaints would be here if the people who made the first two were making this one, but then I doubt they would make these decisions. And I doubt Max would now look like Barry Burton and Bruce Willis hideous bastard love child.

AKA "It sucks for them because they as fans are left with a game they do not recognize."

Aaaaaaand this takes us back to the H word.

[Darkmoon]

...you've lost me, completely. How is it hypocrisy to say, 'You know, the sequel looks like it's gonna suck?' Especially given the dictionary meaning of the word is all about presenting false beliefs...

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Hypocrisy

If people it was suddenly announced that the origional staff were all there and this was there plan, and suddenly people loved it, then I'd agree. As it is? It's people not liking a game that's entirely a cash in without the soul of the game's origins.

[Member_of_STARS]

...you've lost me, completely. How is it hypocrisy to say, 'You know, the sequel looks like it's gonna suck?' Especially given the dictionary meaning of the word is all about presenting false beliefs...

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Hypocrisy

If people it was suddenly announced that the origional staff were all there and this was there plan, and suddenly people loved it, then I'd agree. As it is? It's people not liking a game that's entirely a cash in without the soul of the game's origins.

You answered your own question.

Ive tried to explain this in almost all of my posts in this current debate and it looks like I either have to stop or stoop to kindergarten level, which Im not really in the mood to do.

Franchise A, changed in all aspects. People embrace or dont give a sh!t.
Franchise B, changed in all aspects. People go on a rampage. People suddenly realize "how wrong" it is to change a franchise around.

Im just pointing out the flaw here.

[Darkmoon]

Some change is fine, even nessecery to keep a series going. But it still needs more links to the origional than just the title. I can't think of many series that have thrown out the spirit of the game as completely as this seems to have done, especially when attempting to revive a franchise from the dead...although I always felt RE4, RE5 and Homecomming come close. And most folks here seem to have a pretty low opinion of those.

[A-J]

Franchise A, changed in all aspects. People embrace or dont give a sh!t.
Franchise B, changed in all aspects. People go on a rampage. People suddenly realize "how wrong" it is to change a franchise around.

Except that your logic is completely wrong here lol, i'm pretty sure no one approved of Resident Evil 4's changes before it's release as well, and we were all similarly skeptical until it actually got released and proved itself to be one of the biggest commercial, and more importantly critical success of the last console generation.

Another example, Silent Hill, people were equally skeptical about the game being handed off to a completely different team, and that ended up being a really awful game.

Every time something tries to make drastic changes, there are always those who are weary of it, rightfully so even, but you're just being plain rude here by calling us hypocrites and trying to enforce your own self righteousness here.

Im just pointing out the flaw here.

the flaw being that you believe you know how everyone thinks ? :S

[Member_of_STARS]

Except that your logic is completely wrong here lol

Ive already told you to try to read and understand everything that youre going to respond to. Because RE was nowhere near the only example of the franchises mentioned here. So the logic isnt wrong, unless you selectively read the text to make it appear the way you would like it to.

i'm pretty sure no one approved of Resident Evil 4's changes before it's release as well, and we were all similarly skeptical until it actually got released and proved itself to be one of the biggest commercial, and more importantly critical success of the last console generation.

So really, where is that "open mind" approach to these changes? Especially when a lot of AAA titles that are completely altered, end up critical and financial successes? When it came to RE5, there were vastly more positive than negative anticipation.

Another example, Silent Hill, people were equally skeptical about the game being handed off to a completely different team, and that ended up being a really awful game.

I brought up a number of first class titles that turned out amazing for the mainstream, while ditching the core fanbase, all while reaping both money and awards.

Every time something tries to make drastic changes, there are always those who are weary of it, rightfully so even, but you're just being plain rude here by calling us hypocrites and trying to enforce your own self righteousness here.

I might be rude to call you a hypocrite, but youre just being silly trying to claim that theres not an ounce of truth in my observation.

the flaw being that you believe you know how everyone thinks ? :S

The flaw being that I overestimate your ability to actually go out and try to understand written text and get the meaning behind it.

[Darkmoon]

*Whistles*

Remember boys and girls, personal attacks offend me...wait, I've already said this once.

Guys are getting close to the line on the personal insult issue. And being a Nanny State Dictactor type, I don't want anyone to cross it.

[Mr_Zombie]

Franchise A, changed in all aspects. People embrace or dont give a sh!t.
Franchise B, changed in all aspects. People go on a rampage. People suddenly realize "how wrong" it is to change a franchise around.

Amazing that some people care about one franchise more than they do about another, isn't it? I've never been Splinter Cell fan, so I don't care how much they'll change in the next game. I loved every second of Max Payne and Fall of Max Payne and after seeing that Max Payne 3 doesn't look at all like previous games I'm worried. How does that make me into a hypocrite?

Or maybe you're talking about Resident Evil 4 here? The game that was released 4 years ago?
You know what? Yes, there was huge backlash back then among RE fans, but people get over it. You wouldn't expect people still debating "oh noez! this is not my Resident Evil!" after all these years, would you? Some fans just left the series when they felt it's just isn't the RE series they've loved, some accepted it, some loved the new incarnation and some just enjoy them as an action-type game with RE theme without deeper feeling toward it. I'm sure that lots of people here would love the series to back to its root though, they're just not debating this because it was debated a lot of times when the game was released. So still, where's the hypocrisy?

it looks like I either have to stop or stoop to kindergarten level

No, it's just that you seem to not understand that some people don't mind changes in one series, but they mind changes in another series. One needn't always be a 100% "pro changes" or 100% "anti-changes" yet you seem to think it must be one way or the other and everyone who thinks otherwise is a "hypocrite".

Mr. Zombie. Most of RE cast say "h2u2".

RE cast, at least for the most part, wasn't defined by their VA because Capcom never felt like sticking to one actor per character and changes them every now and then. Also, characters in RE games are inconsistent - in one game you have Leon as a rookie cop, in another as a super special agent that throw one-liners left and right and yet in another as a 100% serious special agent; in one game Wesker is a commander who just wants to get some money and don't mind killing his subordinate to achieve that, in another he's an super human and in the other a comic book villain.

However, even then people were mad like hell when it occured that Waugh won't return as Wesker in Umbrella Chronicles and was also ditched in RE5 (and yet, after RE5 was released, people didn't mind Douglas as Wesker because RE5 was a totally different Wesker than the RECV/RE4 one). Also, lots of fans love that Capcom at least uses Alyson Court as Claire all the time.

I was bringing Snake and Hayter all this time, because Hayter made the character western audience know; just like James McCaffrey made Max Payne.

Is there's something wrong with the fact that fans are attached to the voice actor?

[kevstah2004]

The only reason re4 was a success is because of it's easy gameplay, graphics and action any true resident evil fan saw it as piece of shit because the story was something straight out of a cartoon in fact I don't even treat re4 as a resi evil title, I just class it as another shoot em up that features undead monsters, the enjoyment I take from it comes from mindlessly shooting stuff.

People jumped on re5 because they thought it was going to harp back to it roots what with it featuring Wesker and Chris but all we really got was re4 remixed in high def with an even shitter storyline since re2 capcom have lost the plot and don't know which direction to take the series in next which has lead to every game since re2 being thrown together in haste with no consideration to the back story and now their trying to sever all all ties to the originals and reboot to cover up and this is exactly what is happening with other previously successful game series it's no wonder people want to bitch and moan about it their not happy in the slightest everything that they loved about the previous games has been washed down the toilet.

Sonic's transition from 2D to 3D = Fail
Resident Evil after Code Veronica = Fail
Max Payne without it's distinctive dark noir comic book style that went onto inspire sin city = Fail
etc

[Stu]

So lets get this right. You dont like to be called hypocritical so you take it down to RE4 arguments, just because you could say "its been 5 years, get over it, its stupid"?

Why am i being called hypocritical? Where have i made a comment about the game's change in direction?

Try again.
[/QUOTE]

[Member_of_STARS]

Amazing that some people care about one franchise more than they do about another, isn't it?

No, it's just that you seem to not understand that some people don't mind changes in one series, but they mind changes in another series.

Allright. Read these through. Then go back to where I first posted and check the responses I got from my initial post. Funny selfcontradiction, isnt it?


I also see that you edited your post to add a significant paragraph about Waugh. Proof yet again that a change in an iconic VA doesnt mean the series will blow up and die because of it. I dont think Ghost Recon or Rainbow Six series have lost any fans because Mitchells or Chavez voice actor has been changing, even though both characters are iconic. Which is why I think that most of A-J´s copypasted list on why MP3 "might suck" just doesnt hold any water.

Take it as an introductory course to videogame empathy.