Call of Duty: Black Ops

[Dracarys]

I should smack you across the face for this one.

Please, don't let the internet stop you. Oh wait, you wouldn't make such a silly hollow statement without it.

First things first. DLC-s are retarded, anyone buying a DLC is supporting the death of independant content creation.

This doesn't even make sense, reality is the opposite of what you claim. Independant developers would be long dead if not for DLC.

Now back to BFBC2: Vietnam DLC. Back in the day we used to call these things "Expansion packs", and such an expansion pack as Vietnam, is small enough for a whole community to rise up and beat DICE verbally into dirt.

What crap, expansions they released in the past weren't much different, Road to Rome was barely a visual change to 1942, doesn't compare Vietnam to BC2 and it had exactly 1 more map, at 150% of Vietnams price, not accounting for inflation. If Vietnam is so terrible then Road to Rome should have ended DICE 7 years ago.

Vietnam is one of the greatest tragedies there is in videogame industry. Just as MW2 introduced P2P "awesomeness" to the PC gamers instead of proven, modern solution in dedicated servers, Vietnam takes a massive stab at the modding community. There was a time when such "DLC-s" were made by the community. Ten-twenty times bigger in content, maybe even better gameplay. But as EA and DICE didnt see a (direct and obvious) penny from it, they are now selling what used to be free, to those willing to pay a full games price for a visual mod with 5 maps (or was it 4?). The saddest part here is that those mods guaranteed sales and kept the community playing a game for 4+ years, building a very loyal fanbase. Fanbase which was loyal not to the brand, but to the perks which came with the brand.

This with the above contradicts itself, so is it replacing expansion packs (oh wait it offers the same content one would, so no) or replacing mods which consoles do not have for 99% of games? Why are you even bringing PC into this, went it comes to pricing of games and content PC and consoles are worlds apart and the BO map packs will likely be free on it anyway.

[Member_of_STARS]

Actually, I tend to refer to most sequels these days as glorified expansion packs to their respective base games. That's about how highly I think of most sequels these days.

I can agree with that.

Unless there's just something wonky about what you interpret DLC as, I have to point out that the DLC solution is possibly the best thing to've happened to independent content creation and distribution. Both on the free and pay-to-play front.

Unfortunately it would be so in an "ideal" world. The only positive trait I supported in DLC-s was additional content injected into games for additional funding which in turn should pay for support and patching the games. Thats in the "ideal" world. With exceptions, a DLC these days is a new outfit, unlocking features already on the disk. And while, once again, some might say that its the "best thing that has happened to the industry", modding is taking a nosedive because developers are not including SDK-s with their AAA titles and choose to go for "map pack DLC-s" and "Vietnam" minimods themselves.

Independant under this context means fanmade, nonprofitable, 100% independant mod team. Those were a major door to the gaming industry itsself for those who chose not to study painting for 4 years. Actually, DICE employs a rather large number of BF modders.

And I can guarantee you that all of the "free DLC" are easily done by one-two guys in a small times work. Except that instead of being able to choose between hundreds of "free" DLC, I can have one (or a few), and theres a massive promotional bell attached to it as if it was a major deal that I now have 4 new costumes.

Now, even though there are a lot of great exceptions, those exceptions are overwhelmed by the trend.

I dunno where this in(s)ane train of thought of yours even came from, but I don't think it's worthy of more than a single chunk or two of my time...

Ahh, typical Carn. Insults come right on in. I assume 2 posts more and I get a warning with a made up excuse? People dont change.

While I can agree that some publishers lack a bit of self-criticism and such when it comes to pricing their content, Vietnam, whether you like it or not, offers plenty of bang for the buck (especially when pinning it up against the alternatives and their price points) and if it truly was just a 15 min project done by some wanker(s) at DICE (and totally just something a lazy modder could've done in his spare time), then why wasn't there at least a handful of equally popular alternatives of nearly the same quality (if not superior, going by your expectations) released in the same timeframe for pretty much any and every single game with a remotely active modding community out there?

I never said Vietnam was a 15 minutes work. Reread the post carefully and pay attention to the paragraphs, and context. A "lazy" modder designed a map for BF2 in a month, which was superior to the original maps. Then released it for free. There were hundreds of such lazy modders, and they created entirely new games, with massive ammount of content. At that time, this was mutually beneficial. Nowadays, "a lazy modder" is limited to "unlimited ammo" mods or new textures/costumes. Thats what I was referring to with the "15" minutes.

Nothing's stopping people from doing "free" alternatives these days. The problem is that anyone who's actually half-capable of doing something useful actually gets him-/herself a job that pays them for doing what they're good at and what they enjoy doing the most.

Except those alternatives arent really free. There is a pricetag attached to them anyway. And if youre referring to modding, lack of SDK-s with the popular titles really limits what you can create and what you cant. Modding scene isnt getting smaller because everyones getting hired. Its getting smaller because theres not enough to work with. Considering that if you want to do something for free, has to captivate you for a longer period of time, there has to be a wider variety of games with SDK-s.

Please, don't let the internet stop you. Oh wait, you wouldn't make such a silly hollow statement without it.

Relax. It was meant half-humorously, and youre overreacting with the "ooh, an internet tough guy" clishé.

This doesn't even make sense, reality is the opposite of what you claim. Independant developers would be long dead if not for DLC.

Developers with no studio to support them? Yes. But thats not what I was saying. I said "independant content creation". Thats modding. Both organized and individuals.

What crap, expansions they released in the past weren't much different, Road to Rome was barely a visual change to 1942, doesn't compare Vietnam to BC2 and it had exactly 1 more map, at 150% of Vietnams price, not accounting for inflation. If Vietnam is so terrible then Road to Rome should have ended DICE 7 years ago.

What happened to Rome? To my knowledge it was barely played. I assume you know of "Desert Combat"?
In contrast, Special Forces expansion pack was greatly received, and to a point, 5 dollar Booster Packs for BF2 and BF2142 were played a lot aswell. You got 3-4 extra maps, new vehicles and weapons for 5 bucks and in the end they were made free in a patch anyway.

The difference between expansion packs and DLC is that people were very critical of expansion packs, because there was some effort attached to it. Downloadable content is so easy and simple to use that in the end its just "15 bucks, pffft, who cares".

This with the above contradicts itself, so is it replacing expansion packs (oh wait it offers the same content one would, so no) or replacing mods which consoles do not have for 99% of games?

How does it contradict itsself? I told you ahead- Expansion packs with such ammount of content but with such a price tag were criticised heavily. Not that DLC and Expansion packs are virtually the same thing. The problem is in your overwhelming support for something which used to come for 5 bucks and now comes for 15.

As for modding on consoles. Last time I heard Unreal was ready for this. Microsoft said no. I think reasons here are as obvious as why theres little to no crossplatform gaming these days. No money to be made.

Why are you even bringing PC into this, went it comes to pricing of games and content PC and consoles are worlds apart and the BO map packs will likely be free on it anyway.

Pricing of PC games and console games for many AAA titles is the same these days. DLC is already taking its seat on PC and when it comes to content, considering most PC games are ports, its virtually the same. But I came here only because I saw praise for Vietnam DLC.

[Branden_Lucero]

yeah, mods are still so much better than DLC. this one group of people had spent 4 years doing an entire mod for Oblivion called 'Nehrim' that's 50+ hours. and its absolutely free. dedication and time for something like that and you hardly see it. now-a-days, its just incredibly stupid shit that they want to charge you for. hell, devs like Bioware and Bethesda pretty much encourage mods anyways since they offer programs for it.

[Carnivol]

Unfortunately it would be so in an "ideal" world. The only positive trait I supported in DLC-s was additional content injected into games for additional funding which in turn should pay for support and patching the games. Thats in the "ideal" world. With exceptions, a DLC these days is a new outfit, unlocking features already on the disk. And while, once again, some might say that its the "best thing that has happened to the industry", modding is taking a nosedive because developers are not including SDK-s with their AAA titles and choose to go for "map pack DLC-s" and "Vietnam" minimods themselves.

Launch DLC tends to unlock content already on the disc, some are pay-to-use update patches for content either partially on the disc or cut pre-launch. A lot of DLC on titles these days also comes with update patches. I think you need to go back to the school bench on the DLC study.

Also, my general impression these days of companies and SDKs; never has so many complete and elaborate SDKs been available for modern day titles/engines as now. As I'll point out later; we had to do these things from ground up ourselves in the past - as we're still doing when it comes to most console games, interpreters,and such these days. Not to mention the sweetness (and annoyances) of games sharing engines these days (good for those who prefer engine X, though).

Independant under this context means fanmade, nonprofitable, 100% independant mod team. Those were a major door to the gaming industry itsself for those who chose not to study painting for 4 years. Actually, DICE employs a rather large number of BF modders.

Didn't I already cover this? I think I did. Anyway, as far as DICE goes, used to work side-by-side with them and still got plenty of former colleagues who're either still there or used to work there.

And I can guarantee you that all of the "free DLC" are easily done by one-two guys in a small times work. Except that instead of being able to choose between hundreds of "free" DLC, I can have one (or a few), and theres a massive promotional bell attached to it as if it was a major deal that I now have 4 new costumes.

In some cases they could've been "easily done", but neither perfected nor tested by a single man unit within a reasonable time frame.

Ahh, typical Carn. Insults come right on in. I assume 2 posts more and I get a warning with a made up excuse? People dont change.

Yes. Typical me - Countered by an even more "typical" you. (Actually, the majority of your reply was already drafted by me with partial followups before I shortened it all down to two short paragraphs instead of doing a wall. True story. Guess I should've kept the original post and saved myself the trouble of returning to this thread and typing out a bunch of stuff whilst pimpin' wine.)

I never said Vietnam was a 15 minutes work. Reread the post carefully and pay attention to the paragraphs, and context. A "lazy" modder designed a map for BF2 in a month, which was superior to the original maps. Then released it for free. There were hundreds of such lazy modders, and they created entirely new games, with massive ammount of content. At that time, this was mutually beneficial. Nowadays, "a lazy modder" is limited to "unlimited ammo" mods or new textures/costumes. Thats what I was referring to with the "15" minutes.

Was it?;

The sad thing is that the price of DLC-s these days is so miniscule (wait a bit, though), that people dont have a problem paying 5 bucks for something which took a single artist to draw up in 15 minutes.

Sure, so it was before "going back to Vietnam" was brought up, but you kinda came off as binning Vietnam in the same bin as everything else. My (or your) bad if that wasn't your intents, but your post really gave off that vibe with your general hatred and inane banter directed towards the Vietnam pack.

Except those alternatives arent really free. There is a pricetag attached to them anyway. And if youre referring to modding, lack of SDK-s with the popular titles really limits what you can create and what you cant. Modding scene isnt getting smaller because everyones getting hired. Its getting smaller because theres not enough to work with. Considering that if you want to do something for free, has to captivate you for a longer period of time, there has to be a wider variety of games with SDK-s.

I don't see what's stopping people from doing free alternatives. The methods employed are hardly any different from the ones of the past. Stuff's still more open than before. I guess we're going full circle on the competence thingy again. Heck, having proper SDK/tools access these days and stuff is probably more widespread than ever before. Back in the days of yonder, most people relied almost exclusively on their own ability to reverse engineer the target game - or on the tools already made by others (who'd done the handywork for them) (Which still is the case with many games, but the complexity of engines, middleware and/or other technicalities has made it all much more difficult to some than it once used to be.)

Don't mistake a handful of mention-worthy games of the past for ALL games of the past having such freedom. There are still both official and unofficial tools for modding a lot of stuff these days. More than ever. (It probably never will be standard for ALL games to have it, most likely because of the middleware employed by a lot of developers these days and how it's integrated in their inhouse tools.)

How does it contradict itsself? I told you ahead- Expansion packs with such ammount of content but with such a price tag were criticised heavily. Not that DLC and Expansion packs are virtually the same thing. The problem is in your overwhelming support for something which used to come for 5 bucks and now comes for 15.

Not sure if I'm following, but what exactly used to cost $5 and now costs $15 and when did it change and how exactly? Game prices have been all over the place over the years, expansion packs used to be priced at various price points depending on the game and amount of content in the expansion packs and in most cases, modern day DLC has been treated the same way.

Heck, only thing I recall paying the local equivalent of $5 for were magazine cover discs packed with fanmade maps for various games and a couple of utility discs for games that'd finally ended up in the bargain bin at my local store. Basically discs with stuff downloaded from some BBS or elsewhere for those of us without an online connection. If we wanted some actual content that wasn't guaranteed to be 99% ass most of the time, we'd have to shell out like 50% of whatever the basegame likely cost at launch.

As for modding on consoles. Last time I heard Unreal was ready for this. Microsoft said no. I think reasons here are as obvious as why theres little to no crossplatform gaming these days. No money to be made.

Microsoft's likes to appear as if they're paranoid about security issues and bring up the subject of how people failed Shadowrun miserably. Lost Planet Colonies Edition player matches aren't really getting a whole lot of love and appreciation either (not sure if this can actually be pinned on how the general multiplayer mechanics were better in the basegame or not...). Maintaining a cross-platform system is a bit of a bitch when it comes to updates/adding content, not to mention dealing with platform specific junk... such as how the design of certain games just have advantages on one platform's main input device and such. (Which could be avoided too, of course, by either opening up for alternative inputs on previously restricted systems or adding restricted game modes for people playing with the same input devices ... which of course would likely, on the PC side of things, be infested with users finding ways to bypass said system.)

However, Final Fantasy XI is stable, alive, and healthy on all platforms.

The big issue with user created content on consoles isn't really a security issue, but rather a matter of various local restrictions, online services and the massive annoyances of ratings. It's easier to get away with anything on an open tool like a PC, but on a proprietary piece of hardware doomed to always be delivered by one single company (meaning they're the ones who'll have to deal with the negative PR crap, legal mumbo jumbo and stuff if someone suddenly bumps into Child Rapist Mod X on LIVE.) In general, the issue could probably be partially avoided if user content is limited to play outside of the platform's main network function (such as LAN play, for instance)

[Member_of_STARS]

Launch DLC tends to unlock content already on the disc, some are pay-to-use update patches for content either partially on the disc or cut pre-launch. A lot of DLC on titles these days also comes with update patches. I think you need to go back to the school bench on the DLC study.

Ive already covered the exceptions. Not really sure why you listed the types of DLC which are almost all potentially pre-cut work added later for additional fee? Is there a point to this?

"DLC with update patches" used to be called just "patches". Where additional content (1-n extra maps, new unlocks, et cetera) was added for free and not for an additional charge.

Also, my general impression these days of companies and SDKs; never has so many complete and elaborate SDKs been available for modern day titles/engines as now.

What? Where? Which ones? Few, if any modern (less than 3 years old) AAA grade titles have an SDK available either at launch or even with a delay. The "golden era of SDKs" which happened to be the "golden era of modding" ended in 2007 and coincidentally thats where the last great SDK was released which was CryEDITOR2. After that point, I dont remember any game with significant fanbase to have a kit released alongside.

If youre talking about standalone software for different purposes (modelling, coding, textures), then theres only so much you can do with those (already covered, limited to new items, textures and thats usually it). Not to mention the work associated with not working with a well set up bundle which the devs themselves used for obvious time conserving purposes. A lot of engines are also unmoddable without an SDK.

Even if you were referring to many games using the same engine and as such "potentially" sharing the same moddability (Unreal, Source, Refractor), that usually tends to not be the case.

As I'll point out later; we had to do these things from ground up ourselves in the past - as we're still doing when it comes to most console games, interpreters,and such these days. Not to mention the sweetness (and annoyances) of games sharing engines these days (good for those who prefer engine X, though).

The problem with doing things "from ground up" post 2001 and pre 1995 is in the workload difference. I assume youve seen plenty of RE mods for HL, their progress, their "success" and assuming you know what youre talking about, you are also familiar with how great of a difference it is to do even simple texture work for a game developed in 1996 and then a game developed in 2006.

A lot of people still mod using general software and graphics design tools, or just edit the files where they can, and it can lead to spectacular results which change gameplay. However, even with the whole Russian/European and Ukrainian mod community (very talented and definitely on par with Western modders) working on STALKER, total overhaul mods didnt exist. A Single Player SDK was missing.

Not to mention the fact that games like Mass Effect, Rainbow Six Vegas, Bioshock, even GoW and a whole assortment of U3 engine games have little to no mods at all.

Then we have this-

http://www.crymod.com/portal.php

And thats with a game which multiplayer was just not captivating enough to hold more than 1K players online just 30 days after the release.

Didn't I already cover this? I think I did. Anyway, as far as DICE goes, used to work side-by-side with them and still got plenty of former colleagues who're either still there or used to work there.

Nope. You didnt. You were saying that DLC is such a superior solution that the free alternatives werent available in the same timeframe. However you also mentioned several "pre-cut content DLC"-s several times, basically answering your own argument. Then of course, theres the fact that "in the same timeframe", for games with DLC, the community has created more content, than DICE has with its paid and free booster packs and expansion packs.

In some cases they could've been "easily done", but neither perfected nor tested by a single man unit within a reasonable time frame.

What? New weapons, new skins, new items, new maps and/or changed ballistics/physics? BF2 mod teams used to work with communities such as TBF2 and TacticalGamer.com to test their mods. With small SP mods (and even small MP mods), testing was adequately performed with just a couple of people. "Reasonable timeframe" has nothing to do with it- on one hand we have someone who gets paid to deliver a subpar product while he works 9-17, on the other hand we have someone who treats it as a hobby (and still manages to create a superior "product").

http://img238.imageshack.us/i/c2largehx5.jpg/

http://www.bf-games.net/images/bf2/fahrzeuge/ef/challenger.jpg

Yes. Typical me - Countered by an even more "typical" you. (Actually, the majority of your reply was already drafted by me with partial followups before I shortened it all down to two short paragraphs instead of doing a wall. True story. Guess I should've kept the original post and saved myself the trouble of returning to this thread and typing out a bunch of stuff whilst pimpin' wine.)

Oh, Carn. Dont act all hurt just because your hypocrisy is revealed. We all know you like to hand out your insults like your warnings for them. Man up and get a beer instead.

Was it?;

Sure, so it was before "going back to Vietnam" was brought up, but you kinda came off as binning Vietnam in the same bin as everything else. My (or your) bad if that wasn't your intents, but your post really gave off that vibe with your general hatred and inane banter directed towards the Vietnam pack.

Yeah, it was. I thought I was being clear with the whole paragraphs thingy, but I see I have to be more clear in the future. Its difficult as it is to get through to hazed fanboys who only have the experience in receiving handouts with a lot of hype, along with perceived social acceptance in enjoying a 5 buck meal for 15, but Ill try.

I don't see what's stopping people from doing free alternatives. The methods employed are hardly any different from the ones of the past.

Stuff's still more open than before. I guess we're going full circle on the competence thingy again. Heck, having proper SDK/tools access these days and stuff is probably more widespread than ever before.

Ill ask the same thing again. Where? What? When?

Back in the days of yonder, most people relied almost exclusively on their own ability to reverse engineer the target game - or on the tools already made by others (who'd done the handywork for them) (Which still is the case with many games, but the complexity of engines, middleware and/or other technicalities has made it all much more difficult to some than it once used to be.)

The difference in workload is easiest to describe by a Project Reality modders comment on modding for HL and modding for BF2. A day and a month.

Not sure if I'm following, but what exactly used to cost $5 and now costs $15

BF2 booster packs "Euro Forces" and "Armored Fury", along with BF2142 booster pack "Northern Strike".

And booster packs weapons (aswell as Special Forces weapons) were integrated into the main game via unlocks. Not a great feature, but still. And even though the booster packs did have not much less content, they were priced 3x less aswell.

and when did it change and how exactly? Game prices have been all over the place over the years, expansion packs used to be priced at various price points depending on the game and amount of content in the expansion packs and in most cases, modern day DLC has been treated the same way.

The reception. And the presentation/promotion. Then again, I remember paying 10 bucks total for almost twice the content Vietnam has and I dont remember massive hype surrounding a "DLC" with "5 new maps!". EXP packs price was actually quite comparable to the price of original game. ~60% of the full games price, and its success was easily measured by how much content it had. The gaming community used to be more critical.

The big issue with user created content on consoles isn't really a security issue, but rather a matter of various local restrictions, online services and the massive annoyances of ratings. It's easier to get away with anything on an open tool like a PC, but on a proprietary piece of hardware doomed to always be delivered by one single company (meaning they're the ones who'll have to deal with the negative PR crap, legal mumbo jumbo and stuff if someone suddenly bumps into Child Rapist Mod X on LIVE.) In general, the issue could probably be partially avoided if user content is limited to play outside of the platform's main network function (such as LAN play, for instance)

No. Youtube. You can filter out bad mods with some oversight for which funding from XBL can cover anyway. And people dont blame Intel or AMD for bad mods, they blame the mod teams.

Not to stride too far away from the initial point, all this conversation did little to solve the differences in opinion about Vietnams (success?) impact on future modding.

[Darkmoon]

A note - if this discussion doesn't stay polite, I'll end it.

[Member_of_STARS]

Ive made 2 posts adressing Carn. If I make the third, Im going to breach the "post 3 times = ban!" rule anyway. Im not a particular wine person, but these pistacios are goddamn fine, so Im going to grab myself a bag before someone starts thinking they are better than reH.

GG

[Mr. Spencer]

I actually want to see where this goes.

[Vector]

Played CODBLOPS with my new Turtle Beach headset last night, and whoa...it completely changes the game experience. I can hear every single footstep around me, and if I use the Ninja perk, it makes things even crazier. It's very intense when there are big firefights and many explosions going on at once. An eargasm, some would say.

[TenderRondo]

Played CODBLOPS with my new Turtle Beach headset last night, and whoa...it completely changes the game experience. I can hear every single footstep around me, and if I use the Ninja perk, it makes things even crazier. It's very intense when there are big firefights and many explosions going on at once. An eargasm, some would say.

When I play Blacks Ops and there are many explosions the frame rate drops. I'm on PS3 btw want to play together?