Devil May Cry series discussion/DmC anticipation (your mileage may vary)

[GuardhouseMusic]

Before we get into the main purpose of this topic, I need to get something off my chest.

To me, the universal backlash for DmC, which hasn't even seen any in-depth previews, let alone a release, just seems harsh and hasty. From what I understand, most of it's based on the fact that Dante coifs his hair in an emo/hipster style.

As a matter of fact, after the TGS reveal, I played 1-3 in full to see what the big deal was. Great games (well, except 2), all of them challenging and fun (well, except 2), with some good art design behind them. I didn't get into DMC4 too much, it seemed a bit too easy and I was burned out on action games by then. Still, it's easily one of the most beautiful games of this generation to me, simply for its more vividly colorful presentation.

However, the plot of each game didn't really amount to anything, and the overarching 'verse of DMC isn't impressive at all. Dante, as a character, has almost no likable qualities, if any interesting or significant traits. He's no different than Leon from RE4, except I guess the difference is that Leon starts out vulnerable and identifiable in 2, and it's the complete change that people usually piss on.

Getting back to the DmC trailer, what's the difference? Is there anything that's so distinct from what we usually see in the series, (especially from its FMVs) which would be any excuse to write it off with such widespread vehemence? Dante's still jumping around and kicking demon ass while making a game of it all. There's still blaring and heavy guitar music with annoying vocals.

For me, if Capcom/Ninja Theory wants to try new things to add to the story and characters, more power to them. I just think that any legit criticism should wait for the gameplay. I'm looking forward to it, especially if it's still as hard and fun to play.

[Alexia_Ashford]

As I'm getting a bit tired, I'll keep this reply short and try to put it into context.

I've been a fan of DMC for years. I'm not really one to put much emphasis on characters' appearances but imagine if RE6 was due to come out and the first trailer showed Jill in a hipster jacket with a shaved head and she'd turned into a chain smoker. They have completely changed the series most iconic character, and not just the character, but the whole atmosphere of the game by the looks of it. The series has always been "gothic" and had a dark, Hellish atmosphere. DmC seems to have turned it into a punk rock game with the main character like Sid Vicious. They also seem to have gotten rid of his iconic weapons as well, and we've not yet seen any recognizable characters.

Like, let's make a new RE game, but completely change everything about the game. Change the characters, put no old characters in it, make it completely unrecognizable except for the title and let an outside developer handle it. Titles sell stuff!

[GuardhouseMusic]

I understand where you're coming from, the greatest emphasis is on the city setting in the trailer. I can see echoes of a gothic style though, what with the beginning establishing shot with a prominent pointed building in the background and the end shot with Dante lounging on a gargoyle. From the looks of it, they're going for the "Batman gothic" style, combining urban settings with more expressionistic touches of shadows and edged, closing in buildings. That doesn't bother me in particular, but for someone who has been following the series through its lifespan, I can definitely understand your point of view.

My main argument, I guess, is that this is just one trailer and it shows off one setting (two if we count the holding cell). What's to say that a good portion of rest of the game won't follow a similar art design to the previous games?

Plus in terms of the weapons, Dante definitely has E & I at the end (unless they're distinct dual-wielded pistols), and I see what looks like an axe and a whip-saw. Again, I think it's early to say that they got rid of stuff such as Rebellion or the Force Edge. From the first game Dante always picked up more weapons, which we saw even more of in DMC3. I can give or take recognizable characters, but I'll shut up for different perspectives on the series.

I don't want to get into the RE comparison to much, though. Sure, that'd be a leap for Jill, but I've always said that the main series post-RE5 should have a complete overhaul.

[Rombie]

I think it has a lot to do with expectation and appeal on one side, and as far as sales go for Capcom - risk and reward issues.

For the existing fan base, they like old Dante and the way the games work - thats why they continue to sell (DMC4 was I believe the best selling in the series in fact), and so to change this now when there is nothing wrong with the series seems silly.

For Capcom, I can understand both having to keep something fresh to keep the series moving forward and the gamble taken if they made this a new IP rather than a sequel to a franchise. But it was fairly clear from first reveal the decisions for changes are not going to do the series right.

Personally it doesn't appeal to me because I do sit in the fan base that felt there is nothing wrong with the series as it was already. What provides me with even less confidence about it is the choice of developer who've produced two exceptionally large failures in a rough genre that the original DMC series already is in, which also does not look good to me.

[GuardhouseMusic]

Ah. I wasn't aware DMC4 sold that well. I don't have an argument for practicality or business. Those are solid facts that I can't contest, and the overall reaction does make it look worse.

For my tastes, I'll still just wait for the game to come out, but if the story's done that stupidly or it's a disappointment gameplay-wise then I'll be the first to admit I went the wrong way about it.

[Rombie]

Re: Sales, just so it doesn't seem like I'm talking out of context on this (not that you didn't believe me anyway):

Tenth Largest Selling Capcom title:

Devil May Cry 4

* Release : 2008/1
* Platform : PlayStation3, Xbox 360
* Units : 2,500 thousand units

http://www.capcom.co.jp/ir/english/business/million.html

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to be optimistic about this and I'm glad some people are but it's really hard to believe that this is a good thing. Who knows, maybe NT will pull out something that really is great and I'll be the one eating my words.

I'd understand if I felt the series had gone off the rails or gone stagnant and someone felt like it was the right time for a change (as much as I hate to admit it sometimes, like RE4 did for RE and this new look Tomb Raider is a good idea for a reboot) but what made DMC itself seemed to still be working and the fan base was there, which is why they were so vocal to the changes.

The people at Capcom and Ninja Theory honestly seemed surprised at the backlash, but when the last game is the one that sells the most (over 2.5 mil as above) and were waiting to see what would happen with Dante next, it's not at all surprising.

This is why there was a tiny bit of backpeddling and hinting at the grey streak in the new Dante's hair, but I'm not sure if that was originally intended to be what they were hinting as well. Personally and I think a lot of people agree, Dante's background is solid enough with what we know from 1 and 3 (plus outside sources if you've followed the animated stuff) that a further prestory maybe also stretching it too far.

I understand perhaps it was harder to go forward with the character (I mean obviously he's more backseat to Nero in DMC4 for simular reason) and that was the need for this, but I think thats just people not trying hard enough personally. Harsh as that sounds. But the irony is put a game together with Dante, Trish (and maybe Lady as well) where they're doing what their setup business is then I think it would appeal because I think it's what people were wanting after the original.

[Dracarys]

I'm sure I read somewhere they want DMC to be a bigger series and DMC4 didn't do as they had hoped. They want 5 million sales from the reboot.

[Rombie]

^ Quite likely. However given the responce, they've alienated the existing fanbase (at least a large majority of it) and the chances of it picking up sales of that size are not great. Personally I didn't like Bayonetta all that much, but the fans of that are very vocal and yet it sold only moderately. The chances DmC can do better than it or even DMC4 is quite unlikely. DMC4 benefitted also from being out early in the platforms lifespans, when competition for attention was low and interest was higher than it is now in the franchise too.

I had this discussion with someone else recently about how Japanese developers are changing their benchmarks. Capcom's IR page I linked above shows games of 1 million units or more. A Platinum sale. This used to be the decent goal in Japan if you were selling anything but an RPG title (or perhaps a Nintendo staple, like a Mario or Zelda title). If you exceed more than a million then you had a massive hit, and anything beyond that only showed how successful the game was.

The problem these days is the Western developed action titles, your Grand Theft Auto's, your Call of Duty's, your Halo's, Gears Of War's, etc. sell multi millions. And the Japanese find it troubling that most of the their games just don't reach this market regardless of critical comment. The actionfication of Resident Evil which bolstered great reviews and great sales for RE4 and RE5 told Capcom that this is definently a step they want to go for, and I guess after moderate success for DMC4 (2.5 mil isn't a small number) they're getting greedy for bigger success as you suggest.

[Alexia_Ashford]

Well, sales don't always indicate quality.

Devil May Cry 3 PS2 1,300,000
Devil May Cry 2 PS2 1,700,000

O.O!

[Jill4EverSTARS]

I loved DMC 1 & 3 especially 3 due to it's level of challenge but DMC4 didn't do it for me I found myself mashing buttons killing everything not to mention I wasn't a big fan of playing as Nero he lacked the personality Dante brought to the table

[Zombie Fred]

I love the gameplay of Devil May Cry 4 and thought the game to be very challenging in the later levels. Nero's arm was a fantastic addition to put your skill rank up. Luckily I am more of the person to enjoy the gameplay more than the story in this genre. Sucks to the people who invested their time in the series and to get a reboot. I'm optimistic to DmC coming, I like the concept I saw. But if this game is set to be sub par 30 fps however, and no pc version to remedy this, then no buy. It being done in unreal 3 is the big factor if the game's technology is compromise to not achieving a great experience in the genre.

[Humor Tumor]

I'm waiting to try it for my real judgement. But seeing as it's made by ninja Theory I have low expectations.

[valentinesdead?]

To me, it's a very simple fix if Capcom wants to make Devil May Cry relevant again. Just get Platinum Games and Hideki Kamiya to make a *true* sequel to the original game, which is by far still the best one out of the bunch when you look at game design and enemy variation. Don't personally care much for even the third one gameplay-wise(but what fan doesn't like the setting and story of it?), but after the damage Ninja Theory will do to the franchise, Capcom may have no choice but to put the franchise out of it's misery, or actually let Hideki Kamiya make the sequel that was always rightfully his(and not the god-awful tranwreck that was Devil May Cry 2).

Most likely won't happen, of course. But that's just my two cents.

[Humor Tumor]

If Platimun games ever made a DMC sequel, I may die from joy. Of course I agree it probably would never happen.

[Rombie]

Well, sales don't always indicate quality.



O.O!

You're right, it's no indication of quality in just sales. But it is often a note of how people are interested in a series. And to be fair, when both those released Capcom was happy to sell over a million of each title.

I think that is the Metal Gear Solid 2 effect there.... interest in DMC2 was higher based on the quality of the original game, but once people played the second game and didn't like it as much the sales of the third suffered greatly due to it, even though in both cases the third game is considered exceptionally good.