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"DVD better than Blu-ray" WHAT THE HELL!?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by adamb1029 View Post
    didnt they say the CD was better then the DVD when DVD's first came out?
    and they said the same thing for VHS against laser disks , it's just how things work , 50 GB Blu-Ray disc manged to prove over and over that it's MUCH better than dvd , both in gaming and media , MGS4 wouldn't be possible if it weren't for bluray , and GTAIV struggled to fit in a normal dvd , if the next xbox won't have a blu-ray drive than you can count on devs picking PS4 over Xbox 3.

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    • #17
      Up-Conversation Really Works
      Great editors are at work here.

      Originally posted by Carnivol View Post
      I'm not gonna read that article, but in the DVD's defense... what does the BluRay have besides extra space?
      Support of two other more efficient video codecs and multiple lossless audio codecs (uncompressed PCM too). In addition to being able to sustain MUCH higher bitrates.

      Current consumer DVD format specs cannot handle HD (there isn't enough horsepower and RAM in those players). If they did, BD wouldn't exist.



      And, oh, the DVD still has the benefit of being the larger leap in technology.
      If you look at purely from a technical point of view, BD is actually a bigger leap in PQ/AQ over DVD than DVD was over VHS. Granted, DVD introduced a lot of conveniences that come from a digital source (no wear and tear if properly taken care of being the main one). But pure resolution and audio quality wise, BD and HD-DVD are a bigger leap.



      Sure, it's still an SD image up there, but if you're trying to tell me your mind is capable of digesting a sharper and more detailed image than that of those while sitting on a nice viewing distance from your own home theater... then put away those darned binoculars and start watching movies like normal people do, you freak.
      And all those DVD's look like utter crap from a PROPER viewing distance in comparison to BD. If you can't tell the difference, I'm not sure what you tell you there. Movies like King Kong in particular look considerably better on BD and are reference quality. 70MM sources also look absolutely breathtaking, and even the IMAX transfers (such as the The Dark Knight portions.. it's almost like looking at HD for the first time)

      The jump isn't purely in resolution; it's colour depth, contrast ratio, black levels etc. Good HD has a lot of perimeters than mere resolution. You want an example of bad HD, turn on any so-called HD channel. There is also the often neglected audio factor where with a proper setup, BD's blow DVD's out of the water even if they have a lossy track.


      Rumors are going around that a new PSP is coming with no UMD. Rumors are also ciruclating that Microsoft's next console will not support any media disc drive, instead everything will be a digital download or purchased on memory device which you plug in.
      Unless there is a jump in net infrastructure that allows every consumer in the world to download software in a reasonable amount of time, that won't happen.

      Likewise for those digital movie download evangelists; sure it's the future but neither the delivery or quality is there yet to threaten boxed formats anytime in the near future. The quality is pretty much comparable to upscaled DVD's.

      Downloads are the future for both movies and games, and studios including Sony are jumping on it already until they're viable enough to replace boxed formats while offering the same experience. The PS3 does have a video store in the US after all, and SCEI has delivered a few games like GT5 and Siren digitally.

      MS isn't exactly anti-BD; Windows 7 does support it. They just won't bother releasing an upgrade to the 360 at this time or ever and it makes perfect sense. It doesn't make any sense to not go with BD in the next console.
      Last edited by Umon Daisuke; 03-20-2009, 11:43 PM.

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      • #18
        ^ Windows supports because they know the PC is an adaptable environment that they can't control the manufacturing of, so they can't stop that from happening or people would have another reason to not use Windows.

        As for the next MS console... I would have agreed that they would go with BD for the next console until those more recent replies were made regarding why they weren't making a new add-on akin to the HD-DVD but Blu Ray. And the responce was they weren't interested in it and they were focusing on digital download because that's where they're going. I still don't think they want, or possibly will, go BD next gen unless they don't have any other option.

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        • #19
          The only valid points they make is that DVD is cheaper.

          Look at just the two formats, ignoring price and all that. Blu-ray is superior in everything. Saying DVD is better just because it is more ingrained into the market is not a valid point.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Umon Daisuke View Post
            Great editors are at work here.
            Good ol' Office Spell Checker 2003 (or whatever, I guess. Picking on things like that surely is a dangerous trap to enter, though.)


            Originally posted by Umon Daisuke View Post
            Support of two other more efficient video codecs and multiple lossless audio codecs (uncompressed PCM too). In addition to being able to sustain MUCH higher bitrates.

            Current consumer DVD format specs cannot handle HD (there isn't enough horsepower and RAM in those players). If they did, BD wouldn't exist.
            In no fear of repeating myself;

            Originally posted by Carnivol View Post
            Everything else is software. The DVD has seen a few WMV-HD releases, which are basically HD videos on DVD, playable on any device capable of playing back WMV9 video (and with subtitles + multiple audio tracks and such. Oddly enough, most stand alone players only support the multiple audio tracks and not the subtitle trackers on those + they also often don't support the menus on them, but they still play them)

            Some companies expressed interest in bringing the HDi features of HD DVD to regular DVDs, so if you popped a DVD into an HDi compatible player, you'll have all the fancy menu features that the old DVD system did not.

            And in terms of technology... BR is more or less to DVD what SACD is to CD, but in another point of view; it's not really that much of a gap either, 'cause we have a few extra factors to consider, such as how we can losslessly compress the shit out of 2 hour long movies and still fit it on a dual layer DVD. So all that is needed is that newer players with capable hardware gets support for this type of compression (assuming their internal hardware has the juice to do so, which basically any media center, 360, HD DVD player and various newer players that supports mpeg4 video in various formats played from USB and optical storage can)
            As for the bitrate thing, seeing that the world's most popular "current generation" BluRay player has a limit of x2 (which turns out to be roughly comparable to the transfer rate of x6 DVD speed) I'd say that currently puts a bit of a cap on the maximum bitrate of the format, unless the PS3 is now also gonna Install your movies to your HDD before you watch them.


            Originally posted by Umon Daisuke View Post
            If you look at purely from a technical point of view, BD is actually a bigger leap in PQ/AQ over DVD than DVD was over VHS. Granted, DVD introduced a lot of conveniences that come from a digital source (no wear and tear if properly taken care of being the main one).
            The main one from a user perspective was not the wear and tear (as digital movies tend to turn to shit if you get physical damage to the fragile media to the point where it's unplayable 'cause of a simple scratch)
            The main draw for DVD was the flexibility of the format and that it provided the user convenience of the menu interface, allowing you to go anywhere on the video content that you want, and that without having to Fast Forward/Rewind. And this all presented in a fashion that does not involve something roughly the size of a small family pizza.




            Originally posted by Umon Daisuke View Post
            And all those DVD's look like utter crap from a PROPER viewing distance in comparison to BD. If you can't tell the difference, I'm not sure what you tell you there. Movies like King Kong in particular look considerably better on BD and are reference quality. 70MM sources also look absolutely breathtaking, and even the IMAX transfers (such as the The Dark Knight portions.. it's almost like looking at HD for the first time)
            Told you.

            I'm wondering what DVDs you're comparing to, though. 'cause I know the US is like the nr.1 supplier of DVD5 releases of 3 hour long movies with transfers that seems like they were encoded in Windows Movie Maker on medium settings. 'cause, sure, there is a quality difference. It's even noticeable without a direct side-by-side comparison. But you really do make it sound like it's the difference between night and day, no matter what movie it is.


            Originally posted by Umon Daisuke View Post
            The jump isn't purely in resolution; it's colour depth, contrast ratio, black levels etc. Good HD has a lot of perimeters than mere resolution. You want an example of bad HD, turn on any so-called HD channel. There is also the often neglected audio factor where with a proper setup, BD's blow DVD's out of the water even if they have a lossy track.
            Sure, there are a lot of benefits from the new digital codecs and all that.

            But you know, you've been talking so much about optimal viewing distances, proper setups and God knows what, that I think it's now only appropriate that you educate people on their shortcomings and tell them where to sit to gain this "optimal viewing distance" (some sort of simply chart would be nice, like screen size vs couch distance), then what type of audio system they need to have a proper setup, so they can feel the rape of formats that hasn't raped them thus far. (I want brand names, speaker positioning, cable types and length, etc...)

            You know, everything that's required to ensure that the movie night is ruined unless someone brought a BluRay player.
            Last edited by Carnivol; 03-21-2009, 09:52 AM.

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            • #21
              The reason I didn't address that point is because it's in no way a viable HD solution, let alone something to compare to BD (that's on the grow and prices keep falling). It's not good HD, nor is it supported by the DVD Forum specs (so not all consumer players can play them). It's horribly compressed bad HD, supported by a format (HDi) that studios aren't supporting. Downloads have a lot of room for improvement but this is a dead end.

              As for the bitrate thing, seeing that the world's most popular "current generation" BluRay player has a limit of x2 (which turns out to be roughly comparable to the transfer rate of x6 DVD speed) I'd say that currently puts a bit of a cap on the maximum bitrate of the format, unless the PS3 is now also gonna Install your movies to your HDD before you watch them.
              35-40Mbps VS. 7-10Mbps for video. The disc speed does little to nothing to increase or decrease that, and let's not compare CLV to CAV drives let alone a tech that's been on the market for 3 years VS 12. Audio varies a lot since DTS HD MA and TrueHD have variable bit rates. The pinnacle of BD presentation are in some catalogue releases; I Robot comes to mind and Baraka.. the latter is just breathtaking and has 96Hz audio too.


              The main draw for DVD was the flexibility of the format and that it provided the user convenience of the menu interface, allowing you to go anywhere on the video content that you want, and that without having to Fast Forward/Rewind. And this all presented in a fashion that does not involve something roughly the size of a small family pizza.
              Wear and tear was a big draw actually in addition to what you said. However, DVD also wasn't recordable for years (for mass consumers), and much like BD doomsayers of present there were TONS of other DVD doomsayers in the mid 90's. Same tune, preaching VHS advantages.

              Sure, there are a lot of benefits from the new digital codecs and all that.
              In addition the the extra space and ability to sustain higher bitrates. And I'm comparing BD to current DVD releases such as TDK and others; I've also seen King Kong SE. If you can't see the difference on average, it's either a placebo effect or maybe an eye checkup is due :p The ONLY question is if you think it's worth the premium, and I know that European prices haven't gone down in either software or hardware as much as NA ones if any in some countries. SE DVD's and BD's are priced similarly here.

              I'm not accusing you, but I've heard a lot of pro-DVD arguments knocking down BD quality simply because they don't want to pay the premium. Some idiot at CNET even said that he'll buy a BD player at $100 only and not $120.

              Btw, I'm not the one who brought up the proper viewing distance issue nor have I talked about it a lot. And if you're trying to be a comedian there and want me to spill out what I prefer in brands to get the most out of BD (or DVD for that matter since good calibration and equipment go a long way), I'm not biting. I'll let you know what I'm using though.

              I've only recently upgraded my ancient Pioneer receiver to a mid-range Onkyo that supports lossless codecs. HDMI 1.3va compatible 7.1, though I don't have the space for that setup so I'm using the same 5.1 one. The speakers are made by Axiom (a Canadian company) and the cables are Monster ones I got on clearance (not a big difference). I sit 7 feet away from a 40" properly calibrated XBR4 (2007 X Series in Europe). Each TV, not brand, is calibrated differently too.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Mr. Kennedy View Post
                The only valid points they make is that DVD is cheaper.

                Look at just the two formats, ignoring price and all that. Blu-ray is superior in everything. Saying DVD is better just because it is more ingrained into the market is not a valid point.
                I agree with this. Although Umon is breaking it down in "high tech" style, I'll just quote the simplistic approach.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Umon Daisuke View Post
                  And all those DVD's look like utter crap from a PROPER viewing distance in comparison to BD. If you can't tell the difference, I'm not sure what you tell you there.
                  Damn I remember watching The Evil Dead on VHS and later when I saw it on DVD the picture was so clear you could make out what color the actors eyes were..it's surprising to see someone use a phrase like utter crap to describe a DVD..

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                  • #24
                    I think it comes down to one thing...the difference between DVD's and Blu-Ray simply isn't worth the price gap at the moment. Especially if your eyesight isn't perfect. Compare the jump from VHS to DVD, and then the jump from DVD to Blu-Ray.

                    Now, compare the price difference between Blu-Ray and DVD. Most people aren't gonna fork over three or four times as much, especially given the current economy, for a picture that isn't a giant leap above DVD.

                    There's no arguing that Blu-Ray is the superior. But is it superior enough for the price? I know I don't think so. I got a PS3 and the TV but I always buy DVDs, every time.

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                    • #25
                      3-4X the price? That's a gross exaggeration; it wasn't that much at launch in 2006 (2X depending on the studio) and prices are a few Dollars or Pounds apart from SE DVD's to BD's today. There is typically a $10 difference in new releases however with single disc DVD editions.

                      I picked up the UK BD versions of the Burton Batman movies for example in Dec, and with the exchange rate I ended up paying roughly $20 each. The DVD's that were released recently in NA are $13.

                      It's good to find a good unbiased place to check out BD reviews to see if they're worth picking up or not. Buying a DVD of The Dark Knight if you can get the BD is pretty much pointless, and getting something like A Clockwork Orange on DVD would be the better option since it's a horrible transfer on BD.

                      Catalogue releases may surprise you at times, particularly MGM's effort to restore the Bond movies. To see From Russia With Love is HD one thing, but to realize that it looks better than most new releases out there is another.
                      Last edited by Umon Daisuke; 03-21-2009, 07:26 PM.

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                      • #26
                        Blu Ray flicks used to have some pretty exorbitant prices, but they've started to fall and be comparable to regular DVDs.

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                        • #27
                          Thats why i buy blu-ray movies on half.com i mean i got max payne for $12 two weeks after its release and it was worth it.

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                          • #28
                            You're right, there not as bad as they were. It looks like they're about twice to two and a half times the price, depending. You can probably find them cheaper with some effort.

                            Still not worth it for me. My eyes aren't good enough to see the difference and I'd rather have that money for other things. But they are more reasonable.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Umon Daisuke View Post
                              And if you're trying to be a comedian there and want me to spill out what I prefer in brands to get the most out of BD (or DVD for that matter since good calibration and equipment go a long way), I'm not biting. I'll let you know what I'm using though.

                              I've only recently upgraded my ancient Pioneer receiver to a mid-range Onkyo that supports lossless codecs. HDMI 1.3va compatible 7.1, though I don't have the space for that setup so I'm using the same 5.1 one. The speakers are made by Axiom (a Canadian company) and the cables are Monster ones I got on clearance (not a big difference). I sit 7 feet away from a 40" properly calibrated XBR4 (2007 X Series in Europe). Each TV, not brand, is calibrated differently too.
                              Gotta be a bit aggressive every now and then ('cause I quite frankly think your posts tend to be a bit... what should I say... sounding a bit too "e-pro". A lot of fancy words, but lacking in actual sensible content. If you know what I mean. Not that I should talk. I bet I could shave off a good percent of my actual wordcount and still get my points across.)

                              Thanks for sharing, though. Anyway, Onkyo? I've actually never been much of an audio perve, but I recently upgraded my home system. Going from an old and mighty Tandberg that's been pushing 4 speaker stereo audio for more years than I think most board members here have made vocal sounds of their own. I was doing a lot of digging around and it actually stood between an Onkyo (forgot the model number) and a Pioneer (VSX-1017AV).

                              I picked the Pioneer as one of the stores that carried it offered to drop the price of any 5.1 speaker set of choice + toss in two rolls of free THX cable if I went with it.

                              The speakers I grabbed weren't the biggest and mightiest of all, though. But they sure pump out enough loud 'n clear audio. It's a set of tiny Canton (MX 100 Satellite + sub, iirc) speakers (pretty heavy for being slightly larger than a soda can, and they came with a price to match that weight). Basically, the upgrade plan is to move the front speakers out over on the sides and get something bigger to put in front whenever I have a more space (aka. new place to live)

                              Good stuff, especially combined with the 40" Samsung I've got. Anyway, I can see the difference between VHS->DVD->HD on this screen (hopefully I'm not the only one ). I can even hear audio differences between the formats. But when it comes to DVD and up for the audio/video... as long as the DVD transfer isn't complete ass, or for some absurd reason 5++ audio track for a 2++ hour movie on a DVD5, I think the movie night is saved. Especially great if the DVD has a DTS track of some sort.


                              Now, if I really want my mind notably blown by audio and visual imagery, I'd go see something like Michael Bay's Transformers at the local cinema on their digital screening system again (I'm there Day 1 for Revenge of the Fallen.) Gotta love having access to a Cinema that's been appointed the title of Norway's best cinema more than 10 times over the past 15 years.


                              [edit]

                              About movies and prices.
                              Around here, a couple of years ago, HD releases cost nearly twice of what normal releases did. A regular DVD would cost something that roughly converts to $30-ish. It's not that bad anymore, but the HD releases are still a tad bit more pricy. One of the things that're worth to take note of is how uncommon "regular" releases are here. Besides weirdo budget publishing companies and some rental releases, you hardly ever find like... a "movie only" release here. You also don't find "Widescreen", "Letterboxed" and similar releases here (like 4:3 "edits") here. You only find the Widescreen ones. Even in the VHS days it was hard to find multiple releases of stuff. Though, I think the majority of my old VHS collection are letterbox releases... (though, I believe there are some "proper" widescreen and also a rather large pile of anamorphic ones)
                              Last edited by Carnivol; 03-22-2009, 08:46 PM.

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                              • #30
                                ill stick with my 70's beta max

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