Religion Discussion Topic

[Sina]

Atheism isn't a religion.

This.

Everyone's an atheist in regards to the other millions of gods and godesses throughout history you don't happen to believe in, but you Christians wouldn't say your disbelief in Thor is a religion, now would you? Then again, if you had been born in ancient Scandinavia you would've believed in Thor, and not the Christian god. That should tell you something about the value of your faith which you cherish so.

Missvalentine... Satanism is a Christian belief, not a pagan one. You can't believe in Satan without believing in Christianity. And you need to get it out of your head that "paganism" equals "evil".

And humans worshipping the Christian version of Satan is pretty funny in itself since he supposedly hates humans more than anything.

As for me, I believe in the inherent humanity and solidarity created by necessity through evolution, and I think religion is dangerous in how it basically teaches children to not think for themselves, utterly destroying any capacity for critical thought. Not only that, but it teaches children to be combatative against modern science and knowledge when it contradicts their 2000 year old texts, leading to generations of ignorance.
Worst is the teaching that humanity is inherently evil and wicked sinners, and we can only be moral if we have a moral guide book tailored for the bronze age. I find that insulting as a human being.

That's only the modern problems. I find it immoral, though, to believe in a philosophy built on thousands of years of murder, cruelty and fear mongering.

[missvalentine]

He's more likely to be the alien eating Tom Cruise's brain.

Haha, lol.

I was pretty sure Spencer was joking, but there was a little doubt in the back of my head.

Everyone's an atheist in regards to the other millions of gods and godesses throughout history you don't happen to believe in, but you Christians wouldn't say your disbelief in Thor is a religion, now would you? Then again, if you had been born in ancient Scandinavia you would've believed in Thor, and not the Christian god. That should tell you something about the value of your faith which you cherish so.

Missvalentine... Satanism is a Christian belief, not a pagan one. You can't believe in Satan without believing in Christianity. And you need to get it out of your head that "paganism" equals "evil".

And humans worshipping the Christian version of Satan is pretty funny in itself since he supposedly hates humans more than anything.

As for me, I believe in the inherent humanity and solidarity created by necessity through evolution, and I think religion is dangerous in how it basically teaches children to not think for themselves, utterly destroying any capacity for critical thought. Not only that, but it teaches children to be combatative against modern science and knowledge when it contradicts their 2000 year old texts, leading to generations of ignorance.
Worst is the teaching that humanity is inherently evil and wicked sinners, and we can only be moral if we have a moral guide book tailored for the bronze age. I find that insulting as a human being.

I disagree with most of what you said there.

Though i do agree that religion is a terrible thing. But hay I'm not religious. I am a christian. Christianity is not a religion it's a faith, and a personnel relationship between myself and God. Would you call the relationship between yourself and your best friend a religion? If not then don't accuse me of being religious.

Also if my facts are correct, Pagans worship nature and the earth do they not? Well, if you do your research, the ruler over the earth and nature is none other than Satan according to the bible. So yeah, there's my reasoning. I think the Pagan religion in itself is evil, not necessary the pagan people.


No offense to anyone here, but he asked in a rude manner, and I'm going to answer him.

[Darkmoon]

Uhhh...yes, Christianity is a religion. It's also a faith. The same rules apply to it as any other religions, regardless of whether you're a member of that religion or not.

And no religion in and of itself is automatically bad. Most of the time people have to bed the doctrine of the religion to bend them to get away with things, such as Muslim attacks on non-Muslim people being justified by deffining anyone who isn't Muslim as a non-human, and so it's not murder. And not all Muslims think that way, only some.

Plus, very simply, for Pagans Satan doesn't exist. He's not real. The Jews feel something similar, for that matter. They think he's an angel sent to test people, but as angels are beings without the gift of free will he cannot and did not defy God's will.

The problem is you're trying to base another religion by your own...and that doesn't work. Judging another relgion by your own leads to things like the Inquistion, the vritual extermination of the Central American tribes, the Crusades and Holy Wars. It leads to things like 9/11. It is not a good thing.

Pagans are not evil. They do worship the Earth and Spirits but, and this is important, as far as they're concerned Satan is a story. That's it. By some Christian standards, every non Christian religion is evil, and everyone who worships them a heretic. Jews? Evil. Muslims? Evil. Christians who don't worship right? Evil. Zen budhists? Evil. Shinto? Evil. Hindu? Evil.

[missvalentine]

Uhhh...yes, Christianity is a religion. It's also a faith. The same rules apply to it as any other religions, regardless of whether you're a member of that religion or not.

And no religion in and of itself is automatically bad. Most of the time people have to bed the doctrine of the religion to bend them to get away with things, such as Muslim attacks on non-Muslim people being justified by deffining anyone who isn't Muslim as a non-human, and so it's not murder. And not all Muslims think that way, only some.

Plus, very simply, for Pagans Satan doesn't exist. He's not real. The Jews feel something similar, for that matter. They think he's an angel sent to test people, but as angels are beings without the gift of free will he cannot and did not defy God's will.

The problem is you're trying to base another religion by your own...and that doesn't work. Judging another relgion by your own leads to things like the Inquistion, the vritual extermination of the Central American tribes, the Crusades and Holy Wars. It leads to things like 9/11. It is not a good thing.

Pagans are not evil. They do worship the Earth and Spirits but, and this is important, as far as they're concerned Satan is a story. That's it. By some Christian standards, every non Christian religion is evil, and everyone who worships them a heretic. Jews? Evil. Muslims? Evil. Christians who don't worship right? Evil. Zen budhists? Evil. Shinto? Evil. Hindu? Evil.

Well i always thought of religion as a bunch of practices, rituals, meditation and a bunch of other stuff too. It's not necessary to do any of that I don't think, unless you actually want to that is.

With Islam they pray to Allah, but have to do all those rituals first like there meeting the emperor or something, and Catholics pray to Mary he sends the prayers to Jesus. Other religions do other things. But when your a Christian you can chat to God no different than you do with your best friend, anytime, anywhere. So i don't really see it as religious. It's more of just a close friendship in my point of view.


And yes I know Pagans don't think the devil exists. But just think about this for a moment, and i don't mean any offense to anyone here but, just hear me out...

Imagine yourself as the devil, how would you try to misguide the souls of the human race? You would change with the times would you not? I mean if you want followers your not just gonna out and say kill people and sacrifice there blood for me, because no one is gonna fall for that except maybe a psycho killer. And the times now everyone wants and loves peace and people are into all natural things. So, how easy would it be, to misguide a person, by making them think there worshiping mother nature, they won't even know what there really doing will they? They will say oh nah I don't believe in Satan, I worship mother nature. Not knowing who or what mother nature is. The best thing about it would be that they would actually believe they are innocent, and that it would be almost impossible for someone to convince them otherwise about there religion. That is just my belief that i thought I would share anyway, I'm not trying to push it on you.

So no I don't think Pagans themselves are evil people, but i think the Pagan religion is misguiding. Of coarse i ain't gonna go kill them all over it lol.


And Yes some Christians are utter morons too. People who think everything but them are evil are just, stupid. I have no problem with Jews. I do have a problem with Muslims for reasons I sated before about womens rights though.

[Darkmoon]

Christianity has it's own set of rituals and traditions. Such as Christmas, Easter, and such. A religion isn't just the rituals of a religion, but the beliefs that make up that religion. Faith is simply the belief in something higher. Since you follow a certain set of beliefs you follow Christianity, as a religion.

As for the devil stuff, well, the first thing that springs to my mind is the devil is a relatively modern creation, that from an Archaological point of view is the mixing of certain Jewish tales with the dark gods and demons of other religions, such as Roman and possibly other ones. In the oldest Christian texts, those based more directly on Judaism and it's belief system, there was no Satan as the devil. Because the Jewish version means he simply doesn't exist, not like this. In essence, Satan has only been around as long as Christianity.

As to your point...that would make sense from your point of view. From there point of view you Christians have taken there deity, corrupted it, made it evil, blamed all the worlds ills on it and then persecuted them for your decision. Depending on the exact kind of paganism practiced, of course, because it's a pretty diverse bunch.

Also, the women's right thing with Muslims...dunno much about that one. I know it happens but it may be a cultural thing rather than a relgious thing, since in Africa certain Christian people do similar things (such as female circumcision, a truly hideous practice) for similar reasons (they will no longer be tempted to cheat on there husbands as they have no sex drive, and they cannot fall to the temptation of Eve) so I'd need to talk to my Muslim friends about that one. They know better than me on this one.

[Bertha]

And yes I know Pagans don't think the devil exists. But just think about this for a moment, and i don't mean any offense to anyone here but, just hear me out...

Imagine yourself as the devil, how would you try to misguide the souls of the human race? You would change with the times would you not? I mean if you want followers your not just gonna out and say kill people and sacrifice there blood for me, because no one is gonna fall for that except maybe a psycho killer. And the times now everyone wants and loves peace and people are into all natural things. So, how easy would it be, to misguide a person, by making them think there worshiping mother nature, they won't even know what there really doing will they? They will say oh nah I don't believe in Satan, I worship mother nature. Not knowing who or what mother nature is. The best thing about it would be that they would actually believe they are innocent, and that it would be almost impossible for someone to convince them otherwise about there religion. That is just my belief that i thought I would share anyway, I'm not trying to push it on you.

So no I don't think Pagans themselves are evil people, but i think the Pagan religion is misguiding. Of coarse i ain't gonna go kill them all over it

You know...I am offended by this. Your utter lack of knowledge and respect for the Pagan religion because of your "Chrisitian" values truly shows how narrow minded things are. You think it is misguiding simply because it does not have the Christian god, and therefore must be easily corrupted by Satan. Understand that people aren't corrupted by what they don't believe in when it comes to a spiritual sense. Someone that does not believe in Jesus cannot be enlighted to believe he was the son of god. Your Christian views paint anything that isn't a Christian to be a heathen. Please stop trying to judge Paganism when you have no idea about it. You say they have no idea what "mother nature" looks like. How do you know that? You don't practice their faith, so you don't know. Instead, you judge them based on what your religion tells you to. I really wish you'd learn a bit more about it before trying to say its evil or not.

[Sina]

So no I don't think Pagans themselves are evil people, but i think the Pagan religion is misguiding. Of coarse i ain't gonna go kill them all over it lol.

Oh for f...

Paganism isn't a religion... Paganism isn't the worship of nature. Paganism is a name given to all religions that weren't the Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Judaism and Islam.) The Egyptian beliefs in their various Gods, Ra, Osiris etc, is "Pagan". The Greek belief in Zeus etc, the Viking belief in Thor etc, the Roman belief in Jupiter etc, all concidered "Pagan". Hell, some people concider Buddism and Hinduism Pagan beliefs still. And yet, all these religions are much older, much richer and culturally significant than Christianity, and were practiced with more conviction for much longer.

That's something to think about MissV. The "Pagan" religions were the original religions that originated naturally and separately around the world, and they were only referred to as "Pagan" when the powers that be tried to convert the entire world to their religion, be it Islam or Christianity.

So, let me ask you, what merit does your religion have over all these other ones, that only dissappeared because there was a time when if you said you didn't believe in a christian god, you were tortured and killed for it.

As for Satan, how can you use that argument when humanity has existed for roughly 200 000 years, and the idea of Satan and Hell has only come up in the last 2000, in a Christian book written by Christian humans. Sure, some past religions believed there was such a thing as dark and evil gods, like Set for example. But that is only because each god had a cult following trying to extend their own gods importance, while villanizing the other gods, thus Set became "evil" in the later Egyptian religion.

But for the record, there is no more sinister idea and enslavement of the mind than the idea of eternal torture which Christians are responsible for. Eternal for fuck sake. A religion based on morality through fear. That's not healthy.

And Missv, conversations are only conversations if the other party responds to you. Your conversations with "god" do not impress me, since it's no different than a child's conversations with their invisible friends. You believe in it because it's comfortable, because it reassures you and makes you feel safe, and you don't question it. That, ladies and gentlemen, is what you call irrational behaviour.

[TheSelfishGene]

Everyone's an atheist in regards to the other millions of gods and godesses throughout history you don't happen to believe in, but you Christians wouldn't say your disbelief in Thor is a religion, now would you? Then again, if you had been born in ancient Scandinavia you would've believed in Thor, and not the Christian god. That should tell you something about the value of your faith which you cherish so.

Here's some back-up.

WATCH THIS

[Vector]

I'm starting to kind of feel bad for missv all of a sudden. Why bring a knife to a gun fight?

[Vogue_Dirge]

I believe that 'religion' is synonymous with 'not asking questions', and some call 'religious thinking' is what I call 'robotic thinking'. I think that religion has developed over the years as a form of control, not a celebration of faith. I believe that the man in the pulpit uses the bible to forward his own agenda, because when you have the power to convince mass amounts of people that if they don't live a certain way, if they don't behave in a certain way, if they don't think and carve their morals a certain way, that they will go to Hell and suffer for eternity, you have the power to make them do anything, because their ignorance has bred a fear.

I also 100% agree with Sina that fear is not right. People shouldn't fear God, they should love god.

I also believe that if there is a God, he sure as hell wouldn't want shit like this:

[missvalentine]

Christianity has it's own set of rituals and traditions. Such as Christmas, Easter, and such. A religion isn't just the rituals of a religion, but the beliefs that make up that religion. Faith is simply the belief in something higher. Since you follow a certain set of beliefs you follow Christianity, as a religion.

There not really rituals, there more of a celebration, like a birthday or new years eve or something.

Also, the women's right thing with Muslims...dunno much about that one. I know it happens but it may be a cultural thing rather than a relgious thing, since in Africa certain Christian people do similar things (such as female circumcision, a truly hideous practice) for similar reasons (they will no longer be tempted to cheat on there husbands as they have no sex drive, and they cannot fall to the temptation of Eve) so I'd need to talk to my Muslim friends about that one. They know better than me on this one.

Yeah i know Africans do that too as well as some Muslims. I watched a whole documentary on female circumcision recently, i made a post a page back about it. It's disgusting and wrong.

http://the-horror.com/forums/images/editor/separator.gif

You know...I am offended by this.

Oh you are? Well I am offended by yours and Sina's posts but I'm not complaining about it.

Your utter lack of knowledge and respect for the Pagan religion because of your "Chrisitian" values truly shows how narrow minded things are.

I could say the same thing to you about your knowledge of Christianity. You sprout a lot of BS you know.

You think it is misguiding simply because it does not have the Christian god, and therefore must be easily corrupted by Satan. Understand that people aren't corrupted by what they don't believe in when it comes to a spiritual sense. Someone that does not believe in Jesus cannot be enlighted to believe he was the son of god. Your Christian views paint anything that isn't a Christian to be a heathen. Please stop trying to judge Paganism when you have no idea about it. You say they have no idea what "mother nature" looks like. How do you know that? You don't practice their faith, so you don't know. Instead, you judge them based on what your religion tells you to. I really wish you'd learn a bit more about it before trying to say its evil or not.

Firstly, my faith doesn't tell me to judge anyone. The Bible never says that anywhere. Jesus was the friend of sinners. Christians who hate on other people cause of there differences are wrong themselves, because we are only human too, Christians are no more holy than anyone else. I am not perfect, i make mistakes too. I really wish you would learn more about Christianity Rosetta before thinking you know it all. I never claimed to know everything about paganism, I don't study it 24/7. But from what i see from my point of view I think it is wrong. I have nothing against paganism or people who follow it, but I'm not going to follow it myself.

Anyways why are you offended by my post? Are you pagan?

Paganism isn't a religion... Paganism isn't the worship of nature. Paganism is a name given to all religions that weren't the Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Judaism and Islam.) The Egyptian beliefs in their various Gods, Ra, Osiris etc, is "Pagan". The Greek belief in Zeus etc, the Viking belief in Thor etc, the Roman belief in Jupiter etc, all concidered "Pagan". Hell, some people concider Buddism and Hinduism Pagan beliefs still. And yet, all these religions are much older, much richer and culturally significant than Christianity, and were practiced with more conviction for much longer.

The old testament was written about the same time as all the other beliefs. The Bible is a compilation of many books from many ages.

That's something to think about MissV. The "Pagan" religions were the original religions that originated naturally and separately around the world, and they were only referred to as "Pagan" when the powers that be tried to convert the entire world to their religion, be it Islam or Christianity.

That is irrelevant. It doesn't matter which came first. What if the first was wrong? Did you think about that? I know you don't like to admit it but a lot of the ancient religions did things like human sacrifice and horrible shit like that.

And yes i know, Christians did that too, they were wrong. But that was mostly catholic, I ain't a catholic.

As for Satan, how can you use that argument when humanity has existed for roughly 200 000 years, and the idea of Satan and Hell has only come up in the last 2000, in a Christian book written by Christian humans. Sure, some past religions believed there was such a thing as dark and evil gods, like Set for example. But that is only because each god had a cult following trying to extend their own gods importance, while villanizing the other gods, thus Set became "evil" in the later Egyptian religion.

I strongly disagree, I believe the earth is only around six thousand years old.

Yes the bible was written by humans, but by humans who had been given a message from God.

But for the record, there is no more sinister idea and enslavement of the mind than the idea of eternal torture which Christians are responsible for. Eternal for fuck sake. A religion based on morality through fear. That's not healthy.

If you think that is what Christianity is then your wrong. Some church's might be like that (Catholics) But I am certainly not and I disagree with that.

The bible says that God is Love.

Let me get this strait, if you are saved by Gods g.r.a.c.e, which is you believe he exists, and that is all. Your going to heaven. If you sin, you will still go to heaven. And that is that. There is nothing to fear at all. What on earth is there to fear?

The 10 commandments have a very good reason. there guidelines of how to live a moral and healthy life. You won't go to hell if you break them but it sure as hell wont be good for you either. I mean, thou shalt not kill. It's simple, if you Kill someone, your gonna go to jail, be branded a murderer for the rest of your life. See my point? There all there for reasons. Not cause God wants to ruin all your fun and make you scared of him.

And Missv, conversations are only conversations if the other party responds to you. Your conversations with "god" do not impress me, since it's no different than a child's conversations with their invisible friends. You believe in it because it's comfortable, because it reassures you and makes you feel safe, and you don't question it. That, ladies and gentlemen, is what you call irrational behaviour.

Just cause you get no response when you pray doesn't mean I and other people don't either. God has answered my prayers many times. And i know many other people who are very close to God that can talk to him as well.

I'm starting to kind of feel bad for missv all of a sudden. Why bring a knife to a gun fight?

[Vector]

[Darkmoon]

Minions, remember to be polite. I'm gonna be keeping a close eye on this one and so if you can't be polite...be warned.

There not really rituals, there more of a celebration, like a birthday or new years eve or something.

They're at a set time with set rules on how to follow them for a religious reason. So they fall into the ritual area.

Yeah i know Africans do that too as well as some Muslims. I watched a whole documentary on female circumcision recently, i made a post a page back about it. It's disgusting and wrong.

Yeah, it really is. But Muslims aren't the only ones to practice it, as I mentioned, some Christians do too. Some being the key word. Never hate a religion for an aspect that isn't universal.

Firstly, my faith doesn't tell me to judge anyone. The Bible never says that anywhere. Jesus was the friend of sinners.

I'm gonna stop you right there. 'Suffer not the Witch to Live'. The Bible, Torah and the Qur'an are all extremely judgemental, setting down some rules and regulations that, by a religious view point, you should never even allow those folks to live.

Christians who hate on other people cause of there differences are wrong themselves, because we are only human too, Christians are no more holy than anyone else. I am not perfect, i make mistakes too. I really wish you would learn more about Christianity Rosetta before thinking you know it all. I never claimed to know everything about paganism, I don't study it 24/7. But from what i see from my point of view I think it is wrong. I have nothing against paganism or people who follow it, but I'm not going to follow it myself.

That's one thing. But you've essentially called them Devil Worshippers, followers of evil. That's something very different. The thing is...Paganism is only related to Christanity in that certain beliefs, aspects and such were adopted by the Church. The belief systems are completely different.

Let me put it to you this way. Resident Evil sucks. Why? Can't shoot and run, can't circle strafe, what the hell is up with those crappy camera angles? I'm also a dedicated, hardcore FPS lunatic. So Resident Evil is crap.

Of course, FPS and survival horror is similar only in that it's a video game...in the same way that Paganism and Christianity are the same in that they're religions. And that's slapping paganism with a really, really wide brush. It doesn't work at all doing it like that. You gotta stop judging Paganism from a Christian stand point...and you need to find out a lot more about Paganism. For example, I know two...one's the more traditional, 'Go into the woods and do strange things, including lots of sex' type. The other is a Norse guy. Very, very different religions. Both technically pagan.

The old testament was written about the same time as all the other beliefs. The Bible is a compilation of many books from many ages.

Eh. The Old Testament is only about 1800 years old. It's an edited version of the much older Torah. Indeed, most of the Bible has been significantly edited at various points. For example, I seem to recall the older versions making no mention of Christ's resurection. The resurection was added into the writtings supposedly by the disciples.

I strongly disagree, I believe the earth is only around six thousand years old.

I mention this elsewhere, but this was not in the Torah and I don't believe it's in the Bible either. This was a best guess by religious scholars and therefore not something that must be believed. Trust me on this. The evidence to the contrary is massively overwhelming.

Yes the bible was written by humans, but by humans who had been given a message from God.

Humans are faliable. We have free will. Since religious texts are written by the hand of humans there is a chance there are elements that are wrong. The free will thing means we can screw up.

[Member_of_STARS]

People who have negative thoughs associated with the term "Pagans and paganism" should first do some research on where the term came from, how it was used and by whom.

For example, during the crusades, every non-Christian religion was labeled as "Paganism", and religions where people worshipped rocks, woods, trees, spirits (not ghosts, but spirits that dwelled in ones home, woods, whatever) were all labeled as "paganism", seen as something someone would do to worship the Devil.

Its like the term "gay" has a lot of negative emotions associated with it, even if a person is tolerant. Gay, for a brief moment, might feel wrong, even though its not.

[missvalentine]

Yeah, it really is. But Muslims aren't the only ones to practice it, as I mentioned, some Christians do too. Some being the key word. Never hate a religion for an aspect that isn't universal.

I never new that. Yes some Christians go waaaaay to far as well. Extremists on any side are not good. I know not every Muslim does it, but the fact that some do disgusts me. But on a whole just about every Muslim disrespects women and that is my problem with them.

I'm gonna stop you right there. 'Suffer not the Witch to Live'. The Bible, Torah and the Qur'an are all extremely judgemental, setting down some rules and regulations that, by a religious view point, you should never even allow those folks to live.

I don't recall that verse. But then again the Bible is huge.

Eh. The Old Testament is only about 1800 years old. It's an edited version of the much older Torah. Indeed, most of the Bible has been significantly edited at various points. For example, I seem to recall the older versions making no mention of Christ's resurection. The resurection was added into the writtings supposedly by the disciples.

I disagree here. The New Testament is about 1800 years old. The disciples added the new testament, and then the bible was formed out of the new and old testaments. The old testaments was written before Jesus was born, some of the books were written by Moses and Noah, they were ages before Jesus came to earth. The New Testament is anything written after Christ was born.

Also where is the proof saying that the Bible was edited?

I mention this elsewhere, but this was not in the Torah and I don't believe it's in the Bible either. This was a best guess by religious scholars and therefore not something that must be believed. Trust me on this. The evidence to the contrary is massively overwhelming.

Well that is the best guess made with a religious perspective so that's what I'm gonna believe. It's either than or 934782374892364982375932752 years anyway.

And it makes me happier to know that Humans and Dinosaurs lived together rather than millions of years apart.

For example, during the crusades, every non-Christian religion was labeled as "Paganism", and religions where people worshipped rocks, woods, trees, spirits (not ghosts, but spirits that dwelled in ones home, woods, whatever) were all labeled as "paganism", seen as something someone would do to worship the Devil.

Well i just said that Pagans worshiped nature. In other words Rocks, Tress, Wood etc...

And they were called devil worshipers because, Satan has dominion over all the earth, and that means nature too. By doing that your bowing to Satan whether you think he exists or not.