Religion Discussion Topic

[kevstah2004]

If you can't live without god in your life that says more about you than it does about atheists, it's like saying you only live your life to please god rather than making your own destiny and choices because your conscience is controlled from a poorly written book, this is why I believe many religious people never reach their full potential.
It's also the reason I don't believe in reincarnation what would be the point of living forever? your life has to reach some conclusion at a point "death" which is why you should try to live the life you have now to it's full potential. How mad would you be in death that you wasted your only life to a god that doesn't even exist.
If a god does exist isn't rather childish for it to believe that we'd blindly follow it without questioning it's existence after all it's curiosity that supposedly got Adam and Eve into trouble, which brings me to Jesus I do believe he existed yes, but I believe he passed out due to blood loss or couldn't bare the pain any longer rather than coming back from the dead they probably thought he was dead already so moved his body to a burial area which he later emerged from he was just a normal man the bible is nothing more than an oversaturation of the times.

[Darkmoon]

Well, Jesus didn't do any of the things the eventual Messiah is supposed to do. So I don't think he ever did the resurrection thing. But eh.

Also, most people are never gonna live up to there potential. Life tends to get in the way. Regardless of what that potential is you have to focus, dedicate your life to it, and that's something most people are not going to be willing to do.

Of course, it's entirely possible to believe in God without believing in a religious text or any specific belief system. I seem to recall a couple of people in this thread have mentioned it.

And yeah, God is aware that people aren't gonna follow him. The free will thing. Doesn't mean he approves but I think of it like a parent who doesn't approve of a child's choices in life, but can't put there hand in to interfere. Doesn't mean they don't love the child or want to help, but there's a point where the child has to grow on there own.

As for being mad if I die and there is no God or higher being...well, I'm not gonna care. That means oblivion awaits so I'm not going to know jack about it, am I? On the other hand if I'm right I get to laugh and laugh and laugh.

[kevstah2004]

Loving is sending someone to hell for not following you? people can believe in their own gods but the idea of god wouldn't even be in their mind if it wasn't for religious text, people get their beliefs from the environment they live in and if people around are talking the good word it'll more than likely influence their belief system the very fact that we use the date 2009 is nothing more than them forcing their beliefs onto us.

[Darkmoon]

You know, this is something that bugs me. Religion = Christianity to far too many folks. My religion doesn't believe in hell, or that Satan is a demon. Of course, then you get the opposite side of things...the protestant loony bins who believe that unless everyone worships God the exact way they do they're gonna burn. Even infants who die, because they didn't accept Jesus as there saviour. That is just nasty.

The idea of God and Gods has been around...well, since there have been people. There isn't a tribe or nation or whatever that didn't believe in there being a greater power than themselves. At least, not to my knowledge. Christanity is simply the largest one in the West. And yes, we get some ideas and laws and even our calender from it. If it didn't exist then it would be a different set of ideas and laws and calender, that's all.

[kevstah2004]

Notice I said "Idea of god" ie: the modern day idea that god is our savior and that we must follow the rules laid down by religious text, I don't claim to know everything about religion but I'm pretty sure each religious text has you following a certain set of rules rather than you just being able to just appreciate it for bringing you into existence like the older non text religions did, how many of these religions still exist today?

[Darkmoon]

Oh, several, albeit it with small proportions. And usually it's people reviving the religion.

And every religion has it's rules. There is always a correct way to appease the ancestors, a right herb to burn, and rules that the tribe or nation followed. Look at the non-Abraham religions. Hindu's have rules, Buddhists have rules, Shinto has rules...

So did the Greek, Roman and Egyptian Gods. They were different rules, sure. But there were certain things you didn't do, or you'd invoke the Gods wrath. It's always been that way. Is it right? Maybe not. But it's not a Christian thing, it's a human thing.

[kevstah2004]

Wear did the idea of group worship come from though? I know cave men drew paintings and chanted but where did the idea of monuments and written scriptures come from and the image of what it might look like brought about? sorry I need a history lesson.

[missvalentine]

Alright I'm just gonna stop arguing now.

I don't feel like writing a huge post arguing about this subject. As I said before religion doesn't interest me. But I will defend my views viciously which is why I argue a lot. But I don't want to be hated by everyone here, so I'm gonna stop. Cause I like you guys, it's why I come here.

There is no way one of you are gonna change my opinion, and I'm not gonna change your opinion either. So lets just, leave it at this.

I could write up a whole post, replying to everything you said, just to be called ignorant again, I don't feel like doing that.

Of course, there weren't two of every animal. There were seven of every clean animal and two of every unclean animal. Gasp. I know, the song is wrong. But you can all go read for yourselves on that one.

Yeah that's true I forgot that.

See what I mean? Now it sounds like you're just arguing in effort to try and get someone in trouble.

I'm not trying to get you in trouble.

Also, please refrain from calling me Kid. I don't call you Girl or Babe.

If you can't live without god in your life that says more about you than it does about atheists, it's like saying you only live your life to please god rather than making your own destiny and choices because your conscience is controlled from a poorly written book, this is why I believe many religious people never reach their full potential.

What is this supposed to mean? Just cause I believe in God doesn't mean I can't do whatever I wish to do with my life. How can me being religious possibly have any effect on my dreams and aspirations?

[Sina]

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

- Epicurus

Look, I'm not out to hurt anyone's feelings. While I don't believe in god, I understand why people feel they need to do so. People like Darkmoon I don't mind. He's right in saying while you can't prove the existance of god, you can't disprove it either. That as an argument for god's existance alone doesn't impress, obviously.

My stance on it is that the idea of god is just that. An idea. It's just a human made guess of what might be responsible for existance. But that's the problem for me. Since it's just a guess with no facts or evidence or historical events to back it up, and being a manmade guess at that, then anything, any random guess we made concerning the start of existance are just as valid, so why take your belief in that particular guess so seriously? Why is it rational to believe in god? And to go even further, how is it rational to presume this unknowable god has some kind of plan for you? How is it rational for any human to claim they know the mind of this god? Genetically, our lives are not about living great, rewarding, enjoyable lives. If that was the case, evolution would've made sure we lived to the age of 500. No, we have short lives because all our genes want us to do is make as many babies as possible and then die, leaving room for the next generation to perpetually push the species forward. We are still pretty basic organisms, nomather how evolved we are. What would god's plan be in that? And why would god, if he knows everything, evolve species like the dinosaurs only to have them become extinct? The sun will eventually die and engulf the earth. Is that also part of god's plan?

As for relativety, alot of believers will say they have had personal religious experiences that have convinced them that there is a god. I don't doubt these people are convinced of that, but I also know that science and biology can explain these experiences. You stand on top of mount everest and the sheer wonder of what you see will give you a similar experience. It all has to do with the chemicals being released in your brain. You have a near death experience, or if you're actually dying and your brain is shutting down, those chemicals will do what they need to to keep your brain active, and as a consequence you might get a similar experience. When you sleep, your brain releases a drug which causes you to dream/hallucinate, because the brain needs constant activity. The brain also releases a drug when you wake up to help you forget these dreams, because remembering them in vivid detail the next day would presumably make you go crazy, especially other forms of life who lack the ability to rationalize dreams. Point is, we can explain pretty much every weird thing our brain does to us. There's no personal experience you can have that isn't explainable, so that argument isn't impressive either.

Alot of people will exclusively attribute spirituality and a sense for the incorporeal to religion and belief, saying if there wasn't religion, there would be no spirituality in the world. This just isn't true. All you need are drugs, synthethized or natural. I'm not trying to undermine spirituality by saying this, since I think the fact that our brains are capable of such emotions and feelings is an amazing fact on its own. I'm just saying that scientifically, that is how it is.

LONG POST IS LONG

As for the belief in god, the simple answer is that it makes people feel good to believe that there is purpose, that when they die they just don't dissappear for eternity, that there's some point to it all. I understand that basic human need. When a loved one dies tragically, it helps most people to believe they went on to a better place. We humans feel we are important, and the idea that the universe doesn't even know we exist, or cares, is something that is hard to swallow for alot of people. Point is, while I don't believe in god or an afterlife, that reassurance people get from belief is not something I wish to take away from them.

This brings up the opposite of belief. Many of you believers would think that not believing means a very bleak and depressing existance. A tragic outlook on life, with no point or reason at all. My opinion, though, is that we only get one shot at this... We're astronomically lucky to be alive, to live on a habitable planet and have the ability to think and feel and to see and appreciate and learn about the universe we live in, and to help make that experience better for the future generations. We should be happy about that. We've been given the ride of our lives, so to speak, and we should be enjoying every goddamn second of it. We only get a short glimpse of existance until we're gone forever, so why waste that time?

Paradise is a nice thought in theory. But just because it's nice and cozy doesn't in any way give you a rational reason to believe it exists. Being gone forever isn't a scary thought to me, because I won't be there to experience it. I was dead for billions of years before I was born, and I didn't really mind...

The current religions is something entirely separate from just believing in god, and something I am morally against. I think there could be a place for religion in the world, if that religion taught empathy, humanism, equality and most importantly, the importance of knowledge and science. No dogma, no separation, no strings attached. But aslong as it is legal to teach the current religions to children, these religions will not go away. The indoctrinated children will grow up to indoctrinate their own children, and the cycle will continue... The cycle that hasn't been broken since the religion was forced upon your ancestors.

What is evident in modern times, though, is that as society progresses, and the quality of life increases, the social standards, laws and expectations from society of you is enough to govern your morals and ethics, if you happened to have been born immoral. In ancient times, with very little in the way of control, religion was important to keep that control. Commit a murder and the law might not see you, but God will! That kind of thing.

Missvalentine and people like him who shit all over and downright disrupt science and scientists don't understand that the things they take for granted like the computers they're typing on, the medical care they recieve in the hospital, the supermarkets they go to and the vast variety of foods from all over the world they are able to eat whenever they want is what science and scientists have given them. The science that put people in space, that allows you to fly to every corner of the world in planes, that built cars, boats and trains, is the same science that says evolution is a fact, and creationism is bullshit. That would be 99% of the scientific community, by the way. But since you "disagree with the scientific process", Missvalentine, why don't you get off your computer which science has given you, stop going to the hospital and getting the treatments medical science has given you. Stop going to the supermarket and instead hunt your own goddamn food. Go live in a cave, and when you get some form of disease, then by all means, pray to God for help instead of getting medical assistance.

Humans are a social species. We need eachother, and we always have. If you see someone you don't know bleeding in the street, you feel an urge to help, and that has fuck all to do with religion or the commandments or a fear of god, but with your humanity. To suggest humans wouldn't know stealing, murder, adultery etc was wrong until Moses showed up - which missv suggested - is just ridiculously ignorant.

Religion didn't cause the world's condition right now, it's people saying our beliefs are gay and what we are doing in the name of our religion is wrong. Atheists are the problem not the believers.

If presidentevil wants to suggest that atheists are responsible for the way the world is, I'd like to agree with him. Atleast in atheist countries. Scandinavia is mostly atheist. Sweden is 85% atheist. And the quality of life, quality of the education, is the highest in the world. Compair that to religious countries, especially countries with more than one religion vying for power. Look at the state of the middle east, the state of Israel and Palestine, if you want to see what glorious fucking world religion leads to. When borders are gone, countries united and no land left to fight for, there will always be religion to fight for. No force in the world throughout history is responsible for more blood than religion.


"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise
as false, and by the rulers as useful.

- Seneca"

PS: missvalentine, I find it mindnumbing that you're suggesting that 99%(99%!!!) of the scientific community are narrowminded, biased idiots for believing in evolution and not basing their research on thousand year old scripture. Concider that for a moment. 99%? Almost every scientist in the world is an idiot according to you? Really? Applying occam's razor to your argument, is it rational to assume that maybe 99% of hard working educated critical thinking researchers actually aren't idiots, and that maybe ignorant, uneducated and lazy you is the idiot? Think about it. I beg you. Even if you've never thought about anything before, atleast think about this. You owe me that much after making me write such a long fucking post. And no offense, but I really dislike you after this whole thing.

[VanRedgrave13]

I'm a Christian :] (not prodestant or catholic, i'm just a plain Christian)
And there isnt any religion i disagree with unless it's satanism.
I'm a constantly chilled person in real life, so i've learned to control hatred, anger..that sort of thing xD so basicly theres not alot that bothers me, as long as i believe in what i want.

That is a very good way to put it. Im kinda like that except i dont really focus myself around religion even though i was raised with christian beliefs i just usualy go by my motto wen it comes to religion: I dont need religion i just need faith in god. Yeah i read the bible, watever i can find on the kuran and the torah. They all have good beliefs religion isnt a bad thing at all its just the people that carry it out are bloody idiots for example fanatics and extremists.

[Kronk]

Sina, while you and I have differing views on things, that was an enjoyable post to read.

We have an old saying in the military, "Put an Atheist in a foxhole and he'll find religion." I've seen this happen. Faith is a funny thing that way. It's one thing to sit behind your computer and wax poetic about theology, but when something that should have killed you, doesn't, you reevaluate things.

I'm not disagreeing with anyone's beliefs here, as that's not my place. I'm just speaking from personal experience.

[Sina]

Sina, while you and I have differing views on things, that was an enjoyable post to read.

We have an old saying in the military, "Put an Atheist in a foxhole and he'll find religion." I've seen this happen. Faith is a funny thing that way. It's one thing to sit behind your computer and wax poetic about theology, but when something that should have killed you, doesn't, you reevaluate things.

Ah... And as you sit there reevaluating, your best friend right next to you - who's praised god since he was old enough to speak - takes a bullet to the head, or a school full of children gets fire bombed, or 3000 people die in a terrorist attack, or a father rapes his daughter in his basement her entire life, or 100 000 Japanese die from atomic bombs and on... and on... and on... Does that not also reevaluate things?

Look, I get it. Fear and panic and traumatic experiences does strange things to human beings. Some people have nightmares for the rest of their lives. Some people become shellshocked. Some people have to spend the remainder of their days in mental institutions. Some people find faith. Some people who were hardcore religious lose faith.

I'd like to think I'm a rational guy, so I'll admit that any one of these things could happen to me if I was ever shot at or bombed. I very much doubt I would become a devout christian after trauma, but it isn't totally unbelievable, from a realistic point of view, that in the heat of battle I would find myself saying a quiet prayer to myself. I would giggle about it afterwards, but I'm saying that it could happen.

But that would be because of the influence the world has had on me. If I had never heard of god or prayer, I wouldn't pray, so it has nothing to do with a connection with god. Some ancient peoples who went to war and had similar experiences prayed and drew strength from their ancestors or any number of thing, so while the experience is universal, god isn't.

Hell, I could have an experience that fucked me up so bad I would show up on these very forums the next day and declare my eternal devotion and servitude to god. Would that in any way strengthen the argument for god? Ofcourse it wouldn't, since I wouldn't be a reliable witness. I just don't see how soldiers having traumatic experiences is significant to the argument for faith, nor do I think that the saying is true. I think the % of faithful certainly gets higher in war, but foxhole dwellers are certainly not all religious. Besides, the American army is very religious to start with. Especially if the brunt of it is made up of young, poor, uneducated volunteers. Although I have heard stories of American soldiers being ostracized and bullied for being atheist.

[Kronk]

I just don't see how soldiers having traumatic experiences is significant to the argument for faith, nor do I think that the saying is true.

I never said it was signifigant to the argument, only that I was speaking from exprience. I did not, and will not, argue religion with anyone. It's not my place. I also like to think of myself as a rational person that can can find logic in all sides of an arguement, but I also have my faith. That is my choice, whether it be by intellegent design or random occurance.

I do, however, take offense to your statement about the "brunt" of our military being poor and uneducated.

[missvalentine]

Missvalentine and people like him who shit all over and downright disrupt science and scientists don't understand that the things they take for granted like the computers they're typing on, the medical care they recieve in the hospital, the supermarkets they go to and the vast variety of foods from all over the world they are able to eat whenever they want is what science and scientists have given them. The science that put people in space, that allows you to fly to every corner of the world in planes, that built cars, boats and trains, is the same science that says evolution is a fact, and creationism is bullshit. That would be 99% of the scientific community, by the way. But since you "disagree with the scientific process", Missvalentine, why don't you get off your computer which science has given you, stop going to the hospital and getting the treatments medical science has given you. Stop going to the supermarket and instead hunt your own goddamn food. Go live in a cave, and when you get some form of disease, then by all means, pray to God for help instead of getting medical assistance.

Umm...I like science, I did use to study it. I just don't like when it tries to disprove the existence of God. For me studying science proves the existence of God even more.

Did you know that Stars "sing"? They actually emit a sound that is unique to each and every star? In other words the heavens are singing. How poetic is that? It's little thing like that which make me believe God's existence even more.

http://www.news.com.au/technology/story/0,28348,25340647-5014239,00.html

Stuff like this cannot be a random chance occurrence.

I don't dislike Science, I think it's a great thing that we can learn to discover the wonderful things in our universe, and to help us appreciate it all the more. It just pisses me off when scientists attribute everything to evolution. I think science can be used to help us understand Gods creation even more.

Humans are a social species. We need eachother, and we always have. If you see someone you don't know bleeding in the street, you feel an urge to help, and that has fuck all to do with religion or the commandments or a fear of god, but with your humanity. To suggest humans wouldn't know stealing, murder, adultery etc was wrong until Moses showed up - which missv suggested - is just ridiculously ignorant.

I never suggested that only Christians have moral values.

PS: missvalentine, I find it mindnumbing that you're suggesting that 99%(99%!!!) of the scientific community are narrowminded, biased idiots for believing in evolution and not basing their research on thousand year old scripture. Concider that for a moment. 99%? Almost every scientist in the world is an idiot according to you? Really? Applying occam's razor to your argument, is it rational to assume that maybe 99% of hard working educated critical thinking researchers actually aren't idiots, and that maybe ignorant, uneducated and lazy you is the idiot? Think about it. I beg you. Even if you've never thought about anything before, atleast think about this. You owe me that much after making me write such a long fucking post. And no offense, but I really dislike you after this whole thing.

I really dislike you too after all this.

[Gradon]

Trust in the LORD with all your heart, on your own intelligence rely not. (Proverbs 3:5 NAB)

This explains the Christian religion oh so well.

http://godhatesshrimp.com