10 Things Christians and Athiests Can And Will Agree On

[Shadow Stalker]

I disagree with this completely. While the message of a lot of religions is good, it is also often used in the name of atrocities/closed mindedness. Just to name a couple: the reason gays still can't openly serve in the military in the US: religion. Female circumcision is done in the name of religion most of the time so the woman is "pure" for the man by the time of marriage. The wearing of veils by Muslim women with which the very act is trying to suggest that they are their husband's property and not equal to him. In my opinion it teaches as many bad things as it does good. The overall message of "love" in the Bible is nice, but it feels a little farfetched when you've just finished reading the Old Testament where God burns people alive because they did not offer him a good enough sacrifice.

Oh, and apparently if you don't obey him, he will starve you and strip you of all your belongings so you have to eat your own babies.

Ya, srsly.

Spoiler:

show spoiler

If you refuse to listen to the LORD your God and to obey the commands and laws he has given you, all these curses will pursue and overtake you until you are destroyed. These horrors will serve as a sign and warning among you and your descendants forever. Because you have not served the LORD your God with joy and enthusiasm for the abundant benefits you have received, you will serve your enemies whom the LORD will send against you. You will be left hungry, thirsty, naked, and lacking in everything. They will oppress you harshly until you are destroyed. "The LORD will bring a distant nation against you from the end of the earth, and it will swoop down on you like an eagle. It is a nation whose language you do not understand, a fierce and heartless nation that shows no respect for the old and no pity for the young. Its armies will devour your livestock and crops, and you will starve to death. They will leave you no grain, new wine, olive oil, calves, or lambs, bringing about your destruction. They will lay siege to your cities until all the fortified walls in your land – the walls you trusted to protect you – are knocked down. They will attack all the towns in the land the LORD your God has given you. The siege will be so severe that you will eat the flesh of your own sons and daughters, whom the LORD your God has given you. The most tenderhearted man among you will have no compassion for his own brother, his beloved wife, and his surviving children. He will refuse to give them a share of the flesh he is devouring – the flesh of one of his own children – because he has nothing else to eat during the siege that your enemy will inflict on all your towns. The most tender and delicate woman among you – so delicate she would not so much as touch her feet to the ground – will be cruel to the husband she loves and to her own son or daughter. She will hide from them the afterbirth and the new baby she has borne, so that she herself can secretly eat them. She will have nothing else to eat during the siege and terrible distress that your enemy will inflict on all your towns. (Deuteronomy 28:45-57 NLT)

This sort of stuff makes me thankful that I consider myself a Unitarian Universalist.

Plus I do agree with you on how the good religious texts mix in with the bad ones.

I personally never read the bible. Mostly because the bad things the bible teaches state that it's okay to oppress women, kill a person just because he/she is gay/lesbian, kill your child if your child talks back at you and that women should practice the art of submitting to their husbands.

[Mr. Spencer]

This is starting to heat up, I'm getting the fuck out of Dodge.

[Darkmoon]

I disagree with this completely. While the message of a lot of religions is good, it is also often used in the name of atrocities/closed mindedness. Just to name a couple: the reason gays still can't openly serve in the military in the US: religion. Female circumcision is done in the name of religion most of the time so the woman is "pure" for the man by the time of marriage. The wearing of veils by Muslim women with which the very act is trying to suggest that they are their husband's property and not equal to him. In my opinion it teaches as many bad things as it does good. The overall message of "love" in the Bible is nice, but it feels a little farfetched when you've just finished reading the Old Testament where God burns people alive because they did not offer him a good enough sacrifice.

Oh, and apparently if you don't obey him, he will starve you and strip you of all your belongings so you have to eat your own babies.

Ya, srsly.

Spoiler:

show spoiler

If you refuse to listen to the LORD your God and to obey the commands and laws he has given you, all these curses will pursue and overtake you until you are destroyed. These horrors will serve as a sign and warning among you and your descendants forever. Because you have not served the LORD your God with joy and enthusiasm for the abundant benefits you have received, you will serve your enemies whom the LORD will send against you. You will be left hungry, thirsty, naked, and lacking in everything. They will oppress you harshly until you are destroyed. "The LORD will bring a distant nation against you from the end of the earth, and it will swoop down on you like an eagle. It is a nation whose language you do not understand, a fierce and heartless nation that shows no respect for the old and no pity for the young. Its armies will devour your livestock and crops, and you will starve to death. They will leave you no grain, new wine, olive oil, calves, or lambs, bringing about your destruction. They will lay siege to your cities until all the fortified walls in your land – the walls you trusted to protect you – are knocked down. They will attack all the towns in the land the LORD your God has given you. The siege will be so severe that you will eat the flesh of your own sons and daughters, whom the LORD your God has given you. The most tenderhearted man among you will have no compassion for his own brother, his beloved wife, and his surviving children. He will refuse to give them a share of the flesh he is devouring – the flesh of one of his own children – because he has nothing else to eat during the siege that your enemy will inflict on all your towns. The most tender and delicate woman among you – so delicate she would not so much as touch her feet to the ground – will be cruel to the husband she loves and to her own son or daughter. She will hide from them the afterbirth and the new baby she has borne, so that she herself can secretly eat them. She will have nothing else to eat during the siege and terrible distress that your enemy will inflict on all your towns. (Deuteronomy 28:45-57 NLT)

One - To my uncertain knowledge, no religious text anywhere has stated that female circumcision is a good thing. That's a cultural issue, extending back a good, long way. The Egyptians noted many of the female slaves had such issues, and they often came from people who worshipped ancestor spirits and the like. The Romans apparently prized them as they felt it removed the female's tendancy to flighty emotions. The practice survived the switch over to over religions. No where in any writtings I've ever seen is this practice condoned.

The same applies to veils, to a point. The practice existed before the Muslim religion did. Although in most cases, I should point out, that woman choose to wear them because they belief it immodest not to, in the same way that traditional Jewish woman won't allow other men to see there hair once they're married (they usually wear a head covering or a wig) and such.

Secondly, yeah, the quote is more or less accurate. Although it's less of God will make you so these things, and more of a 'these terrible things could befall you if you continue your unpleasant ways' type of thing. And oddly enough, the people got 40 years to change there mind without God doing any of them. Those were the words of Moses, supposedly, not a direct warning from God...and since Moses got into more than a little trouble for over stepping where his will left off and the will of God began, it's entirely possible that, if the whole spiel is true, that it's nothing to do with the Big Guy.

That's not to say that God is always nice. He isn't. Some of the punishments are harsh as hell. The Torah is different to the Old Testament, but there close enough to be worried We also get threatened with Haemoroids, for example. Along with personal death and destruction. It should be noted that God has promised not to wipe us out again, though. There is usually a reason behind the punishments, with a ton of warnings before hand, however.

Still, there are parts of the Torah I don't agree with. The laws regarding homosexuality, for example. Of course, most Jewish scholars pretty much shrug and point out there are over 600 over commandments that are equally important. Go do those, and you and God can sort it out when you die.

My personal belief is this - That in ye olden days, when God was sending prophets and such, we were the racial equivilants of children. We needed both wonder, in the form of miracles, and terror in the form of the punishments sent to be made to behave. Because let's be honest...a lot of the older peoples of the world had some serious issues. Some of the stuff the Bablyonians and Romans did make me feel a little ill.

Now we're older and wiser, at least in theory. I figure we're about teenagers now. Old enough to be on our own, and responsible for ourselves and our own actions. God's backed off now because the way you treat a child isn't the way you treat a young adult. And yeah, as a race, we've got a lot of teenage issue. We don't want to clean our room, for example. We want to strip mine it so we can be as lazy as possible. And, from my point of view, we've got a lot of daddy issues.

But most teenagers grow out of it and become better people, responsible adults...so long as there parents don't baby them and leave them unable to cope with the big wide world. I'm sure we all know someone who, even if they've left home, still goes home to eat more often than not because they can't cook and has mummy come over to clean up for them. Hence why we're lacking much in the way of Divine Guideance now, except for the lessons of yore

[Trent]

I agree, but most of our principles and morality come from a religious heritage.

The notion of good and evil is something that comes from religion, and it's the basis of morality.

Even if there is now what we call Humanism, I think that, uncounsciously, most of our society, behaviours and beliefs were (and are probably still) influenced by religions. That's the way I see it anyway.

You seriously need to do some more reading. No offence, but when I read this I get the impression that you are a bit blinded in your Western culture, my guess is that you are pretty young and has yet to explore the history of the world.

The notion of good and evil (as you put it) does NOT come from religion. Long before religion was even an idea, there were vast civilizations across the world. There was peace everywhere and believe me, they knew very well what good and evil was. Are you telling me that the early Roman empire did not know anything about morals? Or that the Macedonian government under Alexander the Great consisted of criminals and corrupters (since they could not distinct good from evil)? It is like you are insulting every single civilization that existed before the religions that we know today came to light.

This is starting to heat up, I'm getting the fuck out of Dodge.

Wise idea, my friend.

[Darkmoon]

You seriously need to do some more reading. No offence, but when I read this I get the impression that you are a bit blinded in your Western culture, my guess is that you are pretty young and has yet to explore the history of the world.

The notion of good and evil (as you put it) does NOT come from religion. Long before religion was even an idea, there were vast civilizations across the world. There was peace everywhere and believe me, they knew very well what good and evil was. Are you telling me that the early Roman empire did not know anything about morals? Or that the Macedonian government under Alexander the Great consisted of criminals and corrupters (since they could not distinct good from evil)? It is like you are insulting every single civilization that existed before the religions that we know today came to light.

Wise idea, my friend.

Well, as an Aracheologist I can say that we've gotten better, as people, as time has gone on. The Romans, for example, wouldn't take an slave they considered useless. There prefered method of killing infants was to smash them against a wall or tree while sorting them out from children old enough to be useful. Not, exactly, something we'd consider a pleasant idea. And of course, we've had more than one situation where the nations of the time waged total war, with the slaughter of all people of a certain other nation were killed regardless of there roll in the war...

Now, whether we're getting better because we're learning the lessons of a higher being or whether we are evolving into a more moral race or maybe something between the two is up to you. That we have become more moral is not really in doubt, however.

[Trent]

During the Roman times and before that, people made a lot of immoral things to today's standards, there is no questions about it. As you say, we have learned throughout the years and strengthen our morals. But that is certainly not due to religion.

The Constitution of the US was written by people who accepted slavery. If religion was really the ultimate "saint" of morality, then slavery would not have existed in the US. The violence against black people in the US as early as in the 1960s did not end because of a religion, it ended because of men.

How hard religious people may twist and turn things, religion and morals are two different things. If they don't accept that, they are either arrogant or ignorant. No offence, of course.

[Member_of_STARS]

I agree, but most of our principles and morality come from a religious heritage.

No. Wrong. Morality has nothing to do with religion. "Our principles" and "morality" are nothing but a more sophisticated version of basic "morality" shown in all social species. "No murder!" is an evolutionary trait, because it strenghtens the pack/species. Or, you know, obviously ants and bees and shit are not attacking each other because they believe in the 10 commandments.

We are animals, more sophisticated, driven by the same instincts.

The notion of good and evil is something that comes from religion, and it's the basis of morality.

Youve got it reversed. There is no notion of "good and evil". Basic norms of behaviour among social species are the basis for morality.

Morality has nothing to do with religion. Please refer to American prison population. The Christian/Atheist ratio is much higher in prisons than its outside. "Morality" you say? Religion has had anything to do with morality. You dont kill another guy because you know deep down that its wrong. Not because youre afraid to go to hell.

[Darkmoon]

Our morality is mixed with religion, MoS. For the vast majority of our exstience as a sentient species, the idea that there was not some greater force than humanity was completely alien. From the most primative tribe up until 50 or so years ago, Atheism was virtually unknown. The vast majority of the world still believes in something, be it Zen Buddhism, Shinto, or Paganism.

Now, a lot of our morality is hardwired into us. Hence similarities in morality across the globe. There's not much doubt about that, although of course the question of where we go that morality, evoloution or a divine will, is something else entirely.

However, there are a lot of issues that aren't explained by those facts. 2000-3000 years ago, it was acceptable to wipe out the men of a village, take the woman and older children as slaves while murdering those too old and too young. That was a fact of exsitence across the globe. Now, while it happens, it's much less common and a good chunk of the world doesn't like it.

Yet we're still, biologically, almost identical. Our brains are the same. But what is acceptable has changed. Biologically, there isn't an answer to that. Socially and morally, humans have advanced, and yet biologically we haven't changed. It certainly suggests that there is more to this than simple instinct, because we've started ignoring those instincts.

[Alexia_Ashford]

They can do that now.

Since when? As far as I'm aware the principle is still "Don't ask, don't tell". Meaning if you're gay, don't say anything and you can serve, but if they find out you're gay, you're out.

And Jon, I respect your beliefs and think a lot of what you say makes sense, and it's a very good perspective to look at it as humanity growing up. I, however, cannot believe an all-loving God would act so much like a tyrant in threatening his subjects with such evil and torturous punishments. I think if any God were to exist, it would perhaps be like Jesus and an all loving gentle soul who doesn't inflict pain and hurt upon others, even if they deserved it, and I don't believe that's the God described in the Bible. It seems to me more like ramblings of an Ancient people. I believe if there was truth in the Bible, it was misconstrued by the people who wrote down the message. To me, Jesus' message was love but it seems to be used so often as an excuse for hatred. Who knows? Perhaps we need a new Prophet who can interpret God correctly. I'm an agnostic, I don't really believe one way or the other because I know I'll never know for certain regardless. The Christian God may exist, but I don't believe him to be the being written about in the Bible. That just seems to come across as a form of control through fear, to me.

Or, you know, obviously ants and bees and shit are not attacking each other because they believe in the 10 commandments.

[Trent]

Obama signed the repeal on lifting the "Don't ask, don't tell" principle last week. It was all over the news.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/12/22/obama-signs-dont-ask-dont-tell-repeal/

[Mr. Spencer]

I'd just like to add that I think it's arrogant of humanity to believe that we have the answers, the truth is no-one knows what the fuck is going on or why we're here. On the other hand, I also don't believe that science will answer everything either, but it will give us a marginally better understanding of how the world works based on empirical fact. As for why we're here and other questions of metaphysics, no-one knows anything, no-one can know anything.

Although, I'll throw my hat into the ring here and add this little thought - considering that our cells continuously die and regenerate and that every cell in our bodies goes through that process, technically are we no longer the same person we were as a baby? On a purely biological level. Think about it, the cells we had when we were born have all been replaced by identical cells, like a form of natural cloning.

Nothing to do with the whole theocracy debate, but an interesting thought on metaphysics nonetheless. Just to point out, I am in no way advocating that as truth or scientific fact, merely a thought.

Also Ricky Ponting.

[Member_of_STARS]

Our morality is mixed with religion, MoS.

10 commandments? The Bible? The Quoran? The second we agree that those arent really what were basing our morals on, or that our morals are based on something which predates "popular" religions, youre discarding religious morality as a whole, on the spot. Atheists dont commit crimes either, Soviet States had as much crime as advanced Western states. Even Vietnam doesnt have its crime rates because its the most atheist country in the world, but because its literally a shithole.

For the vast majority of our exstience as a sentient species, the idea that there was not some greater force than humanity was completely alien.

Now youre convusing "religion" with "understanding how the world works". Religion was a simple answer, youll find that the less educated a person is, the more supersticious he is. Thats all religion really is, fear of the unknown and supersticion.

From the most primative tribe up until 50 or so years ago, Atheism was virtually unknown.

http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismhistory/a/AncientGreeceSkepticism.htm

Not true. Atheism has been known for a very long time, and is usually associated with technological and social advancement of society. Its no wonder that studies tie IQ and education level with how religious a society is. Ancient Greece (and very likely others before them) had their own atheist movement. Naturally, you couldnt really be as vocal about it, unless you didnt want to get your throat sliced.

The vast majority of the world still believes in something, be it Zen Buddhism, Shinto, or Paganism.

That doesnt make the belief any more valid. We used to "believe" the Earth was flat, or that women were mens property (even this has changed during times, both ways).

Now, a lot of our morality is hardwired into us. Hence similarities in morality across the globe. There's not much doubt about that, although of course the question of where we go that morality, evoloution or a divine will, is something else entirely.

Ants.

However, there are a lot of issues that aren't explained by those facts. 2000-3000 years ago, it was acceptable to wipe out the men of a village, take the woman and older children as slaves while murdering those too old and too young. That was a fact of exsitence across the globe. Now, while it happens, it's much less common and a good chunk of the world doesn't like it.

Thats a bad example. "Social species" doesnt mean packs and small communities didnt fight for food supplies to keep their own groups survival as top priorities. "Society" isnt a global term.

Yet we're still, biologically, almost identical. Our brains are the same. But what is acceptable has changed.

It hasnt. Its become more sophisticated. What youre referring to as "changed" are mostly artificial laws and rules. Or religious norms. Our morality comes from two basic instincts- survival and passing on our genes. As social species, its detrimental to our survival to kill those who are in our community, as its detrimental to harm them in nonphysical ways (a more sophisticated version/extension of survival instinct). Wiping out a neighbouring village was "morally acceptable" if they posed a threat to "our" food supplies, security or if striking them would be the only alternative left when our own survival was under risk.

Biologically, there isn't an answer to that. Socially and morally, humans have advanced, and yet biologically we haven't changed. It certainly suggests that there is more to this than simple instinct, because we've started ignoring those instincts.

Which ones? Its become more sophisticated, but were still acting based on our simple needs/instincts.

-

or why we're here

I dont think this question even matters.

[Grem]

Or, you know, obviously ants and bees and shit are not attacking each other because they believe in the 10 commandments

These two you mentioned are naturally social. Such is not the case with all the other animals, including humans.

Humans established society because of reason. Because they needed security to live together. They are not naturally social. Primitive men, fought for territories or women and even today they destruct themselves. All these considerations for the poor and the ill is fake. See how the world really works, people are selfish and individualist. All the man wants is to have more money and power than the other one. You can see this even on this board, everyone wants to show that the other is wrong and that their opinions matter more than the other.

[Trent]

You can see this even on this board, everyone wants to show that the other is wrong and that their opinions matter more than the other.

Not true, there is always two sides and two groups of people.

[Pikminister]

Last night while I was having a cup of coffee at a fast food joint two 'Christians' were talking about religion. They ended the discussion insulting each other in a way that reminded me of fanboys when arguing about which game console is the best.

TREAT OTHERS AS YOU WOULD LIKE TO BE TREATED is a golden rule that most ppl (even religious ones) will simply not follow.

Thus why we have wars and shit.