"Occupy Wall Street" Riots

[Rombie]

^^ Your first major problem is that you're looking at this as an "American" problem but it's not, the protests are spreading across America and the world currently because Wall Street is operated heavily by criminal activity that cannot be properly regulated under it's current running; insider trading, stock manipulation, etc. just to get the rich richer. Purely, greed. This impacts on world markets just as heavily.

Secondly it has nothing to people "having" or "not having" a job, it's about equality in living and pay. Sure there are people out of a job, there are also many millions of Americans working their butts off but only so they can scrape past living, many of them working at companies that pay them next to nothing but make the rich much richer. But you also can't get a job when little to nothing is left also because your job has been taken offshore, replaced, downsized, or anything like that.

I had this issue with someone else on these forums talking about "handouts" and also specifically paying for stuff for health care for all, and they said the same things as you.

You neglect a number of points; firstly health and social welfare care usually end up paying for themselves. You example put money in now for health, most of it becomes preventative - someone prone to a heart attack lowers their risk through this to not turning up to an emergency clinic and costing most at that end that they end up not being able to pay because they have no cover and they die. The cost gets written off, but it still costs. Could have used that money years ago. Also people who do have cover get ripped on healthcare costs anyway, drugs that in other countries cost a few dollars end up costing hundreds. If you have a long time condition arrive then you'll be out of cover in a year or two.

Secondly the other irony is that there are billions spent on prison care in the US (because the US has the highest per capita prison populations of the entire world as I recall) contracted out in most cases to companies but all paid for by the US taxpayers. If you're that destitute sometimes you're better off committing a low level crime in the US because you might get away with it and have some money for a bit or at least you'll end up with a bed, meals, and clothing to wear if you didn't have it. How fucked up is that? No wonder the prison population keeps growing, a lot of crimes are from desperation.

If there was better social care provided, more services, more support, the difference would be made up for funding it in a lack of requirement to put that money into the prison system.

But the simple point behind all this is the core concept of the blind curtain put over wall street allowed to be there by a lack of interest by the various govt. of the US over the years, mostly because a lot of the companies paying for it as well. Greed.

< sarcasm> I also enjoy the fact you came straight in a labelled them "Communists" and "Nazi's" too because that's so obviously what it's about < / sarcasm >. I also don't see much "rioting" going on here either. I may not agree with the protests either but you can't be this narrow viewed on what the point is. Someone brainwashed you good if you're slinging those sorts of words
(contradicting as they are) around about some people protesting. If you ever find yourself out of work and struggling to find a new job, just remember what you think of others in the same position.

[Vogue_Dirge]

You don't believe that this is a land of opportunity? Mind if I ask why you feel that way?

And thanks, I'll do my best (:

Well there is opportunity, but it varies depending on your lot in life. Sometimes people just don't have the means to break out of their situations. There's only so far someone can go. These days a bachelor's degree wont promise you a job. There are people with bachelor's degrees that are going to work as waiters and other minimum wage jobs because they just can't get jobs in their fields. These days you have to have a Masters. And school is expensive, especially good schools.

Any many of those people protesting are not asking for handouts. A lot of them are just asking for corporations to pay their dues. These corporations make an exorbitant amount of money and contribute little of it back to the economy (a lot of it isn't even taxed, like here in California, oil companies aren't taxed at all with their profits all whilst there are huge cuts being made to schools).

[Ununoctium]

Even people with jobs have limited opportunities. Admittedly less limited, but still.

However, no. People shouldn't be given handouts unless absolutely required, and should find work if they can. But someone working as a waitress isn't going to make as much money as Paris Hilton, and won't have the same opportunities.

Not everyone can work though. For example, and completely at random, someone might have a significantly damaged ACL in the left knee, damaged discs in there back leading to loss of sensation, muscle strength, stability and a high level of pain in the right leg and lower back, a trapped nerve in one shoulder and a mental illness would have a heck of a time finding work, 'cos most employers are going to look at the crippled crazy person and not want to know.

And of course, at least over here in the UK, for every job offered they'll be around 300 applicants - so some people may just have real issues getting a job because there's not much work to be had, thanks to bankers who screwed up royally (but still deserve that six figure bonus, of course).

I can't speak for everywhere in the US, but in my area there are a lot of job opportunities. Hell the company I work for just opened a new store and has dozens of open positions.

Now you might be able to argue that people who are unable to take care of themselves, such as say senior citizens suffering from Alzheimer's disease and are unable to take care of themselves should receive some sort of support from the government. However let's say a 40 year old man needs to have a lung transplant because he had a five-pack-a-day habit. The government shouldn't support that individual. However the local community can support him, his neighbors, the churches/mosques/synagogues, his fellow citizens in the local area, charity organizations, etc. can help him to pay for the surgery.

[Ununoctium]

Well there is opportunity, but it varies depending on your lot in life. Sometimes people just don't have the means to break out of their situations. There's only so far someone can go. These days a bachelor's degree wont promise you a job. There are people with bachelor's degrees that are going to work as waiters and other minimum wage jobs because they just can't get jobs in their fields. These days you have to have a Masters. And school is expensive, especially good schools.

Any many of those people protesting are not asking for handouts. A lot of them are just asking for corporations to pay their dues. These corporations make an exorbitant amount of money and contribute little of it back to the economy (a lot of it isn't even taxed, like here in California, oil companies aren't taxed at all with their profits all whilst there are huge cuts being made to schools).

That's what the socialists (or as they call themselves now, "social democrats") fail to understand. By having a flat tax the rich are ALREADY paying more. Let's say there is a flat tax of 10%, and so you pay 10% of how much you make. A rich person also pays 10% of what they make, however since they make more than you, they also pay a lot more taxes than you. The Obama tax cuts on the upper class however completely screwed everything up and the rich ended up paying a lot less thanks to Obama, the self-proclaimed "champion of the workers," despite how his extremist policies and overregulation has hurt the workers and middle class most of all.

[Vogue_Dirge]

That's what the socialists (or as they call themselves now, "social democrats") fail to understand. By having a flat tax the rich are ALREADY paying more. Let's say there is a flat tax of 10%, and so you pay 10% of how much you make. A rich person also pays 10% of what they make, however since they make more than you, they also pay a lot more taxes than you. The Obama tax cuts on the upper class however completely screwed everything up and the rich ended up paying a lot less thanks to Obama, the self-proclaimed "champion of the workers," despite how his extremist policies and overregulation has hurt the workers and middle class most of all.

But the rich can afford to pay more. They just don't want to, especially if they have earned their wealth through shady means.

But I'm not talking about rich people. I'm talking about rich corporations. Corporations that take in a huge amount of profit (especially oil companies that have the US by the short and curlys), but they pay nothing in taxes. Taxes that would go to the government so they can afford to keep important social programs going, especially keeping money within the education system.

[Canas Renvall]

They're both far-left and they both absolutely hate capitalism and liberty.

I stopped reading here.

Communists are far left. Nazis are far right.

Hence they don't see eye to eye.

Just thought I'd point that out before I keep reading.

[Ununoctium]

But the rich can afford to pay more. They just don't want to, especially if they have earned their wealth through shady means.

But I'm not talking about rich people. I'm talking about rich corporations. Corporations that take in a huge amount of profit (especially oil companies that have the US by the short and curlys), but they pay nothing in taxes. Taxes that would go to the government so they can afford to keep important social programs going, especially keeping money within the education system.

Well of course they don't want to, nobody wants to pay taxes, or at least most people don't. But many of them do give back through charity organization, for instance Bill Gates has donated billions of dollars to aid the poor and people without health insurance. Also, they give back by giving people jobs, when was the last time a poor person gave you a job?

I'm going to start by saying that I don't know enough about corporate/business taxation to make much of an argument, however if these corporations are getting away without paying taxes, than that doesn't sound like a free and competitive market. However I'd like to point out that corporations are run by people and those people pay taxes (or at least they should).

[Vogue_Dirge]

Well of course they don't want to, nobody wants to pay taxes, or at least most people don't. But many of them do give back through charity organization, for instance Bill Gates has donated billions of dollars to aid the poor and people without health insurance. Also, they give back by giving people jobs, when was the last time a poor person gave you a job?

I'm going to start by saying that I don't know enough about corporate/business taxation to make much of an argument, however if these corporations are getting away without paying taxes, than that doesn't sound like a free and competitive market. However I'd like to point out that corporations are run by people and those people pay taxes (or at least they should).

Most of the jobs they are creating are over seas. Which doesn't help us out at all.

[Ununoctium]

I stopped reading here.

Communists are far left. Nazis are far right.

Hence they don't see eye to eye.

Just thought I'd point that out before I keep reading.

People who are a little smarter than me would like to disagree with you. I personally cannot sum up what they said, but it seemed to make a lot of sense when I first read it. Please look at the discussion starting at reply #25: http://www.politicalforum.com/opinio...t-would-3.html

I wish I could reply with my own words, but I simply couldn't think of a way to say what they said.

[Inferno04]

Do we have a problem with the gap in rich vs poor? Yes.
Are we flawed? Yes.
Should we perhaps try to fix things? Yes.
Is our economy going to hell? Yes

Is Occupy Wall Street going to fix it. Hell no, it is a jumbled mess. I get physically sick when people compare these protests to the ones in say, Libya from not long ago. These people have no idea what their ultimate goal is, no idea how to get there, they're just crying out, with many not knowing why they are even there. All this boils down to is, "Coorperations, give us money because you owe us and we don't like that you have more." This sums up my view on it quite nicely: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsJPKMvWDmY

Maybe if there was an ounce of intelligence or conviction put into these protests, then maybe it'd be honerable, a cause to join. But as it stands, I'm going to go to my crappy minimum wage job, get my small paycheck, and try to live life. I think struggling is a part of life actually, keeps you on your toes.

[Ununoctium]

Most of the jobs they are creating are over seas. Which doesn't help us out at all.

Precisely, which is especially due to things like Obama and his green agenda, such as the carbon tax. Though I admit, a lot of it also has to do with the fact that they can pay Chinese workers merely pennies a day instead of being forced to pay Americans $7.25 an hour or more. There's not much we can do about that unless you want to abolish minimum wage, while that may work in theory, since it would curb inflation and everything would go down in price, I can't help but feel it would open the door to exploitation.

[Ununoctium]

Do we have a problem with the gap in rich vs poor? Yes.
Are we flawed? Yes.
Should we perhaps try to fix things? Yes.
Is our economy going to hell? Yes

Is Occupy Wall Street going to fix it. Hell no, it is a jumbled mess. I get physically sick when people compare these protests to the ones in say, Libya from not long ago. These people have no idea what their ultimate goal is, no idea how to get there, they're just crying out, with many not knowing why they are even there. All this boils down to is, "Coorperations, give us money because you owe us and we don't like that you have more." This sums up my view on it quite nicely: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsJPKMvWDmY

Maybe if there was an ounce of intelligence or conviction put into these protests, then maybe it'd be honerable, a cause to join. But as it stands, I'm going to go to my crappy minimum wage job, get my small paycheck, and try to live life. I think struggling is a part of life actually, keeps you on your toes.

I just listened to the video and it made me thankful that I am not a complete and utter morons like these people. Oh my god, I didn't think it was possible for people to be this stupid. These people make the pro-shariah Muslim extremists look like geniuses, at least the Muslims know what they want.

[Vogue_Dirge]

Precisely, which is especially due to things like Obama and his green agenda, such as the carbon tax. Though I admit, a lot of it also has to do with the fact that they can pay Chinese workers merely pennies a day instead of being forced to pay Americans $7.25 an hour or more. There's not much we can do about that unless you want to abolish minimum wage, while that may work in theory, since it would curb inflation and everything would go down in price, I can't help but feel it would open the door to exploitation.

Jobs were being sent over seas LONG before Obama. Don't press that on him. It's mostly because of US rules and regulations on factory work, production, and pollution. Which, if removed, would send us back to the age of industrialism when things were incredibly unsafe. So job creation is an incredibly slippery slope.

I'm for taxation depending on your income. That's just me. Because the rich typically get richer, despite the larger taxes, and it would hardly faze them. It would put more money in the government, which would make room for creation of programs and possibly jobs, which would mean more people working, which would me more people making money, which would mean more people spending money, and spending money is one way to get the economy back on track.

Every political group likes to spend money. Conservatives say they don't, but they do. It's a problem on both sides.

[Ununoctium]

Jobs were being sent over seas LONG before Obama. Don't press that on him. It's mostly because of US rules and regulations on factory work, production, and pollution. Which, if removed, would send us back to the age of industrialism when things were incredibly unsafe. So job creation is an incredibly slippery slope.

I'm for taxation depending on your income. That's just me. Because the rich typically get richer, despite the larger taxes, and it would hardly faze them. It would put more money in the government, which would make room for creation of programs and possibly jobs, which would mean more people working, which would me more people making money, which would mean more people spending money, and spending money is one way to get the economy back on track.

Every political group likes to spend money. Conservatives say they don't, but they do. It's a problem on both sides.

You can't tax your way out of a recession. And besides, can you name one social program that actually works? When was the last time a government social program helped you? And I agree that both sides are spending a lot of money. You have to admit though that the big government socialists do spend more than the GOP though.

As for "progressive" taxation, it is counter-productive. Because the taxation percentage keeps going up the more money you make, as a result you'll eventually hit the ceiling and you can not possibly make any more money. As a result there is no longer any incentive to do anything, since you'll actually lose money instead of making it, no matter how successful the venture or research is.

[Rombie]

Yeah, but while most "rich" people are supposed to be taxed heavily they generally get taxed less than joe-average-citizen currently thanks to heavily provided tax breaks, incentives, and write offs. Most millionares pay half what they should be anyway through creative tax work, mostly provided by taxation laws that haven't changed in decades. So the even if the new way isn't for you, you must clearly see that some sort of change is needed. This is true for the Wall Street protests as well, which is all the main point really is.

I can't speak for the US, but we have numerous social programs here where I am (and many others around the world) and they do a decent job and have helped me in the past, from healthcare to financial and career support. You're so hyped on the boogyman that socialist movement supposedly has.