Let's discuss the RE15 Sewers ....

[Darkness]

i haven't perused all the ripped BGs that aren't playable, so sorry for the uninformity. I'm actually looking at the massive amount of 1.5 BGs from the trial edition of retail right now

[biohazard_star]

Oh, it's fine. Accusations (jokes?) are the only things that get me cranky. Tee hee hee.

[Guest]

lol. hey hey, I hope you seriously know its 1.5 not 15

"Thread: Let's discuss the RE15 Sewers ...."

[Guest]

Can anyone examine the dates the backgrounds and/or masks were last modified? Or is that impossible on the MZD build because of how it's been altered?

The images that biohazard_star is posting is on both the vanilla build and the WIP build. They are from room 201. This is from a much older version of the sewers.

Interestingly the muddled up background is called L Tunnel 2, the first of which being the Drains L Tunnel, so why would a room be named after something if it was older and more obsolete? It might be obsolete, but I'm not all so certain that it's older than L Tunnel, unless it was Team IGAS who named it L Tunnel 2.

[RMandel]

I have the sneaking suspicion that Team IGAS assigned some of their own room names. Can't prove it, won't know if it's true until the plain vanilla 40% build is posted, but nevertheless ...

If we take the Spider Tunnel as "red" - i.e. this was the final design, and it was meant to be played in that form - then the door on the high ledge is the only way in or out. That's why you need the crate. Push it out of the room and down into the trench, then use it to climb back up onto the high ledge and back out. That's why I put the Spider Tunnel where I did in my proposed map - connected to the narrow "hook" hall in the Baby Gator Room. It's the only place it can go under those circumstances. Why is it there? The only reasonable theory I can come up with is you have to go into the Spider Tunnel's Crate Room for a special item pickup you'll need later in the Sewers. Why would Capcom have done it that way? I don't know.

Let's not forget LTUNNEL2, though (ROOOM203) - the older version of the Spider Tunnel. It has doors at both ends, and I think one end was connected to what I call Keiji's Corridor (ROOM206?). I also tend to think the latter was the "central hub," if you will, of the original Sewers design. It's a very "busy" area, if you know what I mean. Lots to do and explore in here - which is probably why Capcom saved and recycled it later for RE2. I think it would have connected to LTUNNEL2 by the door at the end where the backgrounds are missing - the one DB disabled in his later patches. I also tend to think that looking at the way its RE2 descendant plays (the area where Hunk's team got ambushed) helps in understanding it. There's both a gate door and a square roof hole at the end of the narrow raised tunnel, and I think (based on the RE2 version) that this is where you would have entered - by gate or roof hole drop, dunno which. I also think (again based on the RE2 version) that the door with the card reader lock (RE2's "two coins" door) is how you were supposed to ultimately get out. The trip through the side door to LTUNNEL2 and whatever lay beyond might have involved finding whatever it was you needed to unlock the door with the card reader. All of this is speculation, of course.

It should be noted that Keiji's Corridor can't be made to work with the MZD built Sewers in its current form due to numerous map issues. It has to be flipped longways to even approach working in the one place it might go - the North Canal. That's why I think it was being saved to be redeveloped as the North Canal proper - and that would help explain why its descendant eventually turned up in RE2. It would be interesting to see what happened with both rooms in the 80% build, but that may never happen.

Perhaps bio, if you ever get any free time, you might take your 3D current model of the Zombie Tunnel and use it as the basis for a proper North Canal - but with the necessary influences from Keiji's Corridor to make it work? No hurry - I know you've got a lot on your plate.

[Guest]

I have the sneaking suspicion that Team IGAS assigned some of their own room names. Can't prove it, won't know if it's true until the plain vanilla 40% build is posted, but nevertheless ...

If we take the Spider Tunnel as "red" - i.e. this was the final design, and it was meant to be played in that form - then the door on the high ledge is the only way in or out. That's why you need the crate. Push it out of the room and down into the trench, then use it to climb back up onto the high ledge and back out. That's why I put the Spider Tunnel where I did in my proposed map - connected to the narrow "hook" hall in the Baby Gator Room. It's the only place it can go under those circumstances. Why is it there? The only reasonable theory I can come up with is you have to go into the Spider Tunnel's Crate Room for a special item pickup you'll need later in the Sewers. Why would Capcom have done it that way? I don't know.

Let's not forget LTUNNEL2, though (ROOOM203) - the older version of the Spider Tunnel. It has doors at both ends, and I think one end was connected to what I call Keiji's Corridor (ROOM206?). I also tend to think the latter was the "central hub," if you will, of the original Sewers design. It's a very "busy" area, if you know what I mean. Lots to do and explore in here - which is probably why Capcom saved and recycled it later for RE2. I think it would have connected to LTUNNEL2 by the door at the end where the backgrounds are missing - the one DB disabled in his later patches. I also tend to think that looking at the way its RE2 descendant plays (the area where Hunk's team got ambushed) helps in understanding it. There's both a gate door and a square roof hole at the end of the narrow raised tunnel, and I think (based on the RE2 version) that this is where you would have entered - by gate or roof hole drop, dunno which. I also think (again based on the RE2 version) that the door with the card reader lock (RE2's "two coins" door) is how you were supposed to ultimately get out. The trip through the side door to LTUNNEL2 and whatever lay beyond might have involved finding whatever it was you needed to unlock the door with the card reader. All of this is speculation, of course.

It should be noted that Keiji's Corridor can't be made to work with the MZD built Sewers in its current form due to numerous map issues. It has to be flipped longways to even approach working in the one place it might go - the North Canal. That's why I think it was being saved to be redeveloped as the North Canal proper - and that would help explain why its descendant eventually turned up in RE2. It would be interesting to see what happened with both rooms in the 80% build, but that may never happen.

Perhaps bio, if you ever get any free time, you might take your 3D current model of the Zombie Tunnel and use it as the basis for a proper North Canal - but with the necessary influences from Keiji's Corridor to make it work? No hurry - I know you've got a lot on your plate.

I believe in a different map layout for the Spider Tunnel. Here is an example, I've used greyed out areas to show how things might be structured and where rooms might be connected.

[B.Zork]

I have the sneaking suspicion that Team IGAS assigned some of their own room names. Can't prove it, won't know if it's true until the plain vanilla 40% build is posted, but nevertheless ...

entire list of available room in debug was just directly translated from japanese name list. on subject of sewers, no need for me to tell anyone rooms on disc belong to many different stage of development

[Guest]

RMandel, in your video you have rooms unlocked which aren't unlocked on any other build? Is there a patch to explore those rooms?

[biohazard_star]

Perhaps bio, if you ever get any free time, you might take your 3D current model of the Zombie Tunnel and use it as the basis for a proper North Canal - but with the necessary influences from Keiji's Corridor to make it work? No hurry - I know you've got a lot on your plate.

I actually haven't worked on it in a while. I'll try revisting the concept when I have the time.

[RMandel]

entire list of available room in debug was just directly translated from japanese name list. on subject of sewers, no need for me to tell anyone rooms on disc belong to many different stage of development

Thanks for the info, B.Zork. My apologies.

That's an interesting idea, geluda. My initial thoughts on the Crate Rooms were the same, too, until I realized that the area we're seeing outside the big loading door is almost above where you came in. It's the same in both. We're missing what would have been the connecting stairwell(s) that wrap around the crate rooms. Even so, it might be an idea worth exploring. In the 40% build, there is what appears to be a large, long mask running alongside the wall in the Spider Tunnel. Might it have been intended to be pinned up high on the wall to cover the loading door? If so, then ....

As for my video clips of the Sewer rooms we still can't access, I cheated. More of my smoke-and-mirrors hacking of DB's PC PMOD - changing out backgrounds in rooms with similar camera angles using Leo2236's RE2BM tool. I'll probably have to do that again, unless the RE15 room PC porting project finishes up before I start making my next batch of vids. I can always do more (and so can some of you, too) if it would help others visualize some of the things we're talking about.

Thanks, bio. I know you're a busy person. No rush - take your time.

The folks in the 123 Modding Forums have started their own thread about researching RE15 assets that's got some research on the Sewers. Here's the link.

http://z4.invisionfree.com/Resident_Evil_1_2_3/index.php?showtopic=2445

[Guest]

If I was to say, I'd say that all these sections of the sewers, or the majority of them, were all intended for final. The problem I have in the L Tunnel is that there are three ladders, one ladder leads to 11B Garage B, one leads to 10B Outdoor A, and the last leads to 300 Site A. The last one absolutely can not lead to 300 Site A, because why would it? If that was the case one could simply go down the ladder into L Tunnel at the first opportunity, cross the water and skip the whole sewer section going directly to the factory. That ladder at the end of 200 L Tunnel must lead back up into B1 and take you to some other section of the sewers.

So my impression is, that B2 is the Drains and B1 is the sewers. You start by going down into B2 from either 11B Garage B if playing with Leon and 10B Outdoor A if playing with Elza. Both Leon and Elza start on B2 in the Drains but cross to the other side and make their way back up into B1 into the green sewer system. From there they make their way round the system through various rooms and corridors, passing the 207 Spider Tunnel, until they reach the top of the water tank and find a key to open the double doors in 200 L Tunnel. They then make their way back through the sewers until they reach L Tunnel again where they open the doors and the water drains. Inside they find and fight the Alligator boss, after which they then gain access to the Factory.

[Darkness]

for sure, you can't trust any of the door links in the current build.

[RMandel]

Agreed about those door links. The gimped-up end of LTUNNEL2 originally linked to the stairs to the Control Room, per the in-game map. No, you can't get in there - I tried many, many times. I even tried coming back to the regular LTUNNEL, since that's the background that came up. I heard myself walk over that end of LTUNNEL and keep going.

It's a fact that most of the Sewers Rooms in the MZD build are absent save in name only. A fortunate few have backgrounds only - no RDTs. Sounds awfully familiar (RE2 Trial, newbies) ... doesn't it?

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Here's an idea. For the sake of discussion, let's borrow Alzaire's proposal of the "five eras" discussion model of various RE15 builds and adapt it to the development of the Sewers/Drains. I'm proposing three stages - Alpha, Beta, and Gamma, as follows:

ALPHA (original, the "green" sewers, etc.) - the earliest version. Notable for its green algae-covered walls. The original version of LTUNNEL2 in the Famitsu trailer is the earliest form (and oldest room). LTUNNEL2 and "Keiji's Corridor" both belong to this stage. The Spider Tunnel is the last fully formed room that can be definitely linked to this period. The original blue/green form of the Central Hub corridor either is the last room developed in this stage or is a transition between it and the next stage.

BETA (40% build, the "brown" sewers, the MZD build sewers, etc.) - original design abandoned for a two-level design and new texture motif. Old rooms from original worth saving or to be adapted are retained temporarily, but are slowly overwritten with new data during this period. LTUNNEL, the Zombie Tunnel, and the "final" Central Hub Corridor belong to this period. The early concept version of the Control Room/East Drain Tank belongs here. The Central Hub, West Tank (Baby Gator Room), and Pump Room are all conceived during this period, possibly based on earlier ideas from the Alpha period (which were overwritten and are now lost). The North Canal is conceived as a replacement for "Keiji's Corridor." The Drains B2 map is created.

GAMMA (80% build, the "final" design, the "gray" or "water-marked" sewers, etc.) - the new two-level design is finalized. The Central Hub is rendered (theorized). The North Canal is not only rendered but receives its final form render - which uses unique gray wall textures with greenish water-mark stains along the walls (lone still, Bioflames collection, theorized). Both the Pump Room and Control Room/East Drain Tank are rendered in their final forms (Bioflames collection stills, Biohazard Complete video collection) - using a distinct gray wall texture. The West Tank (Baby Gator Room) is partially rendered. All of the rooms created during the Beta period are retained as part of the final design, making up the new "lower" level of the Sewers. The final-form Spider Tunnel is retained (early promo trailers). Necessary connecting corridors are built. All other leftover rooms are jettisoned

I'm sure some of you can better revise and rewrite what I've outlining. I just want to make sure we all mean the same thing whenever we're talking about the "40% build sewers," the "brown sewers" versus the "green sewers," and so on - like Alzaire tried to do with his "build era" concept.

[Guest]

I'd propose that L Tunnel is older in concept than L Tunnel 2, but not necessarily in its current state of design. I don't see why they would label an older room "L Tunnel 2" if it came from an earlier period of development. Perhaps it was just an alternate design and they hadn't decided between the brown sewers and the green sewers as the final design for that section of the game. Perhaps both were developed side by side, given the criteria of a tunnel with an L shape and existed in a state of uncertainty until they eventually decided to overwrite L Tunnel 2 and go with the final brown Drains design.

Who knows?! Lol. its all guess work at this point.

[RMandel]

Could be. Isn't speculation fun? Although it's pretty easy to trace the evolution of the various "green" L-tunnel designs from the Famitsu build right up to the Spider Tunnel. Some of the camera angles change, ledges and trenches come and go (or are raised or lowered), but the basic concept remains the same. The most radical change of all came with the Spider Tunnel, when they added the Crate Room from Keiji's Corridor and removed the door at one end - thus forcing a puzzle solution to get back out.

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Sorry if I confused everyone with my Sewers room references. I made myself a list based loosely on the unlocked list in the MZD build (there's a patch out for that), the order in which the various sets of backgrounds appear for the rooms that aren't there, and added in the rooms we know should be there but aren't in any form whatsoever. It goes something like this, using the names from Enig's and bio's proposed walkthrough. Names in the Debug Menu list follow in parenthesis. The ones in question marks are my intrusions in the "official" list.

200 - Lower Canal, aka Sewers Arrival Area (LTUNNEL)
201 - Sewers Save Room (SAVE ROOM)
202 - Bridge Tunnel (ZOMBIE TUNNEL)
203 - Green Ledge Corridor v2 (LTUNNEL2)
204 - Pump Room (ENGINE ROOM)
205? - West Tank, aka Baby Gator Room (UNKNOWN ROOM 1)
206? - North Canal v1, aka "Keiji's Corridor" (UNKNOWN ROOM 2)
207 - Green Ledge Corridor v3 (SPIDER TUNNEL)
208 - East Tank Control Room, aka Control Room (ALLGATOR ENT)
209? - Central Hub (not in Debug Menu list, shown on Drains B2 map only)
20A - East Tank lower level (ALLGATOR EXIT)
20B - Lower Canal + Central Hub Corridor (LTUNNEL FLOOD)
20C? - Central Hub Corridor, aka "Water Chase" Corridor (not in Debug Menu list)

... and here's an brief illustrated guide:

http://www.mediafire.com/view/bhkbe8sf93hh25x/Sewers_Guide.png

This list is speculative, not official, made to help me get a better grip on the Sewers. My apologies for any confusion I've caused.

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... and for the curious among you, here's a somewhat updated version of my "Sewers Alpha" map - showing what we know of the original Sewers design. It is all VERY speculative and I may not have the proportions right in Keiji's Corridor - since we have neither an RDT or actual bonafide video to measure with.

v2 - http://www.mediafire.com/view/u85uzr...s_Alpha_v2.png

Now updated to fix the issue with the ladder - I had it connected to the wrong corridor.

v3 - http://www.mediafire.com/view/pint62...s_Alpha_v3.png

... and for s--ts and giggles ...

http://www.mediafire.com/?84wt8lsw7tag4ac

Now we don't have to flip/mirror Keiji's Corridor anymore to substitute as the North Canal. All we have to do is rotate it 180 degrees so the grate at the platform end lines up with the grate on the east side of the Baby Gator Room's tank. That also puts the card reader door's corridor UNDER the Bridge Corridor and Central Tank, instead of the narrow corridor with the roof drop hole. Fix one thing, unpin another. I can feel for D.Birkin ... (sigh)

Which leads us back to the one real issue I still have with using Enig and bio's theorized walkthrough. How do we get into the North Canal to exit the Stage? Use the Driver Tool (again) to open the tank grate in the Baby Gator Room? Some way in the Central Hub's tank that wouldn't have been as obvious as a main drain? Suggestions, anyone?