First 8 Minutes of Degeneration

[WeskerSexyCheez]

I didn't say you couldn't. I just meant, you know, there's a point when people get it. I was just thinking it would be a shame if people only got to know you as 'the guy who doesn't like the games and the movie' or something like that.

I do think it's a real shame, actually. I mean, yes, they were not my favourite films, but I can see the good parts... Even in Apocalypse which had to be the worst... The zombie children were SCARY!

I think you have to ignore the people who only have the cranial capacity to say 'andersons movies suckd an i h8 thm so bad' or whatever.

I just think y'know, its a new thing so people are excited and maybe not everyone needs to be told its a bad idea to spend money on them.

[Biohazard EX]

Well, it's kind of impossible to ignore those people since like I said, it's the vast majority. And wherever there's a topic concerning the movies, there will be a swarm of Anderson haters.

Look, all I'm saying is, I don't see why people shouldn't get a taste of their own medicine. I go into the 4th movie thread, and I see nothing but hate. But people who are all excited for Degeneration, are they gonna see nothing but, "That was awesome! I can't wait to see it!"
Because I guarantee, when a first trailer comes out, or sneak preview, or whatever, of Anderson's 4th RE movie, there's gonna be a ton of people talking about how it's a big waste of money.

[Darkmoon]

Well, yes, a lot of folk won't like the fourth movie and won't give it a chance. And that's because of Alice. She's what is called in fanfiction a Mary Sue character, one who is positively perfect in every way. Even her flaws tend to seem like flaws put there so she isn't completely perfect. And she rams other characters as far into the background as possible. I mean, in Apocolypse, does Jill actually interact with the Nemesis at all? And yet in the game it's based on...

And that's the point, really. The RE movies are nothing more than, for me at least, bad fanfiction with a big budget. The first one was decent but the second and third are just...fanfiction, devoted to showing how much cooler Anderson's character is compared to every other RE character out there.

And with Alice's clone army likely appearing in RE4 as well...yeah. More Alice, more of the time, does not appeal to me. For all my other gripes about the movies they can, more or less, be summed up by the fact that she is in them. At least for the second and third.

[Biohazard EX]

And you will come back time and again to stress those gripes. And so will a ton of other people.
I have plenty of gripes about what Capcom's been doing lately, why shouldn't I voice them? Leon is more of a Mary Sue than Alice. Half the characters in the games have been butchered, personality wise. So what's the difference? That it's Capcom official and that if Capcom said so, it shall be accepted? I don't see why.

[WeskerSexyCheez]

all I'm saying is, I don't see why people shouldn't get a taste of their own medicine

Because that's what we call sinking to their level. ^.~

I dunno... Just implying people are wasting their money on something they like? Kinda mean. Just like it would be to say it's a waste of money to go see the fourth film. As I say, I'm a hopeful. I'm going to see it and maybe it will actually appeal to me. But I don't know that yet... I'll have to see it first.

[Biohazard EX]

Well, you're saying that's sinking down to their level...
I could just give them the simple truth then, but I think that would be even meaner. I mean, I could say, "Yes you're right... I shouldn't argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."
But then I'm just calling those people idiots. How is that any better?

[Darkmoon]

Yeah, I will. And you can defend the clone army is you wish. Although, if you'll do me a favour and play the Star Wars Empire theme while you do it, it would amuse me.

I'd disagree that Leon is more Mary Sue than Alice, but he is certainly up there. His perfect, parasitical mind eating hair, his ability to dodge lazers, defy gravity and sling unwitty one liners does not do him much justice.

But the main problem with a Mary Sue is they force other characters, especially characters that were more interesting or, in fanfiction, actually meant to be there into the background. And Leon simply doesn't do that as often as Alice does. Hell, I'd go as far as to say, with the possible exception of Luis, he doesn't do it at all.

And yet, in Apocolypse, Jill had, maybe, a supporting character role. In a story that was origionally all about her and her battle for survival. That rubbed me up more than a little the wrong way. And Carlos and Nicholai...I occasionally forget they're in the movie, that's how important to it they were.

Of course, none of the characters were ever really well developed, and I agree that Capcom has gone directions with Leon and, probably, Chris that won't be very good. If it was me I'd have kept Leon infected and hallucinating, doubting himself and what is real...maybe even killing some innocent because he's hallucinating so badly. But, as I've said before, character development seems to be a dirty word at Capcom.

That doesn't mean Anderson should be forgiven for making Alice force her way past other, canon, characters to make sure she is Resident Evil in a lot of peoples minds, the one who don't play the games. It just means Capcom isn't doing things right either.

[Biohazard EX]

Well, the first movie didn't have any game characters in it. And as far as I remember, that was the one thing that people consistently complained about. I can only assume that Anderson put Jill in the second one to appease the fans of the games, but no, they weren't happy with that either.
Would you have liked Apocalypse better, if neither Jill, Carlos or Nicholai were in it? And instead maybe one random soldier guy named... John Smith?

I mean, yes, the central character in the movies is clearly Alice. But the fact that the movies do contain characters like Jill, Carlos, Claire and Wesker, it's more of a nod toward the games than anything. And frankly, I think saying, "into the background" is a bit too harsh. That's like saying that in the X-Men movies, Wolverine pushed the others into background. They still got a decent piece of action. And frankly, the moments with Jill, Carlos, Nicholai, LJ etc. Were some of the more memorable moments in the movie. Alice was a plot device, rather than a character, as far as I'm concerned.
But that aside, the bottom line is, yes Alice is the central character of the movies. But I'd rather have Jill, Carlos, Claire, etc. as supporting characters, than not have them there at all.
And characters aside, it's not like the movies were badly written, or badly acted, or had bad effects or bad action sequences. It's still Resident Evil, at a general level.

What are you getting out of the games? Umbrella, T-Virus, Zombies, Monsters, Attractive Women, Guns, Commandoes. Exactly what you get out of the movies.

[Darkmoon]

Well, no, what I get out of the game is mostly scares, which the movies failed dismally at. In the movies, Umbrella is apparently so powerful they can wall a city in days, buy off hundreds if not thousands of people, and of course remain functioning when goverments fall. I personally think that may have been a little over the top.

I agree, there are plenty of similarites between the movies and the games. Guns, girls, commandos and zombies. On the other hand I don't recall the game having Nemesis bow down to Jill and fight someone for her, or the US Army throwing up an impeneterable wall in a couple of days. And I don't remember Jill killing people with her mind, or driving through a stained glass window on a bike, back flipping off that and shooting some lickers. I don't seem to recall complaining about the guns, girls, commados or zombies. I do complain about the stained glass though. I like stained glass. Was the door too easy or something?

And I, personally, was not one of the folk who wanted the RE characters in the movie. If it was me I'd have had it as a bunch of surviors, similar to outbreak, trying to escape the city. Which would have lacked Umbrella's mighty wall. I would have had Jill and Carlos, yes, but I'd have most likely have had it as a scene set in the Church where Jill is hurt, and they talk to Carlos to get some help before moving on. And I'd have let Nemesis keep his badass, but then, I'd have kept him to a smaller role too. I think having Alice trying to reach Matt, and then failing, would have been a much more interesting story than her converting him to her cause.

I say Jill and Carlos are in the background because whenever I think of the movie, I think of Alice, and pretty much Alice alone. I haven't seen it in some time, I admit, but I honestly can't recal Jill doing anything significant. I seem to recall Carlos killing off someone Alice actually missed near the end, but that was about the limit of his involvement. Wesker was more of a, 'So...now he's a chubby corporate guy who has sunglasses instead of some kinda double dealing black ops scientist? Huh?'

And Claire might as well have been called Gina, for all the revelvance the two characters had to each other, but I will admit Carlos played a bigger role in the third movie. Not, you know, a much bigger role because it's still the Alice show, but at least he died in an interesting way.

[Darkmoon]

Well, no, what I get out of the game is mostly scares, which the movies failed dismally at. In the movies, Umbrella is apparently so powerful they can wall a city in days, buy off hundreds if not thousands of people, and of course remain functioning when goverments fall. I personally think that may have been a little over the top.

I agree, there are plenty of similarites between the movies and the games. Guns, girls, commandos and zombies. On the other hand I don't recall the game having Nemesis bow down to Jill and fight someone for her, or the US Army throwing up an impeneterable wall in a couple of days. And I don't remember Jill killing people with her mind, or driving through a stained glass window on a bike, back flipping off that and shooting some lickers. I don't seem to recall complaining about the guns, girls, commados or zombies. I do complain about the stained glass though. I like stained glass. Was the door too easy or something?

And I, personally, was not one of the folk who wanted the RE characters in the movie. If it was me I'd have had it as a bunch of surviors, similar to outbreak, trying to escape the city. Which would have lacked Umbrella's mighty wall. I would have had Jill and Carlos, yes, but I'd have most likely have had it as a scene set in the Church where Jill is hurt, and they talk to Carlos to get some help before moving on. And I'd have let Nemesis keep his badass, but then, I'd have kept him to a smaller role too. I think having Alice trying to reach Matt, and then failing, would have been a much more interesting story than her converting him to her cause.

I say Jill and Carlos are in the background because whenever I think of the movie, I think of Alice, and pretty much Alice alone. I haven't seen it in some time, I admit, but I honestly can't recal Jill doing anything significant. I seem to recall Carlos killing off someone Alice actually missed near the end, but that was about the limit of his involvement. Wesker was more of a, 'So...now he's a chubby corporate guy who has sunglasses instead of some kinda double dealing black ops scientist? Huh?'

And Claire might as well have been called Gina, for all the revelvance the two characters had to each other, but I will admit Carlos played a bigger role in the third movie. Not, you know, a much bigger role because it's still the Alice show, but at least he died in an interesting way.

[Mr_Zombie]

One thing I don't understand about you, Biohazard EX. You're saying that with RE4 and UC Capcom ruined RE etc. But yet you enjoy movies, that are, as you yourself have said it, "fine action movies"; you don't mind Alice being all over the top, psychic powers and being bitchy included; you don't mind cliché plot with lots of plotholes, crappy villains (Nemesis that turns out to be good, dr Issac that in his evilness is equal to Marcus, and that turns into a talking Tyrant etc.) and lots of characters (in Apocalypse and Extinction, characters taken from the game but that are in no way alike them) that are there just for sake being there (usually, just for the fanservice).
And those are all those things that people (and, I presume, you) hate about RE4 and UC, and that you implicate will destroy Degeneration.

I really liked the first movie. It was far from perfect, it included that stupid AI concept and killed lots of characters with laser trap, but I think it was enjoyable and very RE-esque (minus puzzle-solving). It's the concept of super Alice as a main character, the idea of including game characters (I treat Nemesis as a character) and then bastardizing them, and turning the movie into action movie (along with running on walls and riding bicycle through window) that turns me off.

With RE5 Capcom at least tries to redeem itself (while keeping RE4 gameplay) and make the main hero less over the top (Wesker beating crap out of Chris), making the story about Umbrella and Wesker and not about some idiotic religion and (I hope) making the game scarier. With RE movies though, Anderson not only doesn't even try to redeem himself and go back to the concept of RE being about normal people trying to survive, he gives Alice even more powers and makes an army of Alice's clones.

[Helegad]

Nobody seems to notice that Nemesis turned good BECAUSE he was previously a human being with feelings for Alice. What was left of Matt's conciousness fought the Nemesis parasite enough so that he could save her and kill himself.

I think I heard that in the commentary. Not sure though, but I'm pretty sure what I've just written is reliable.

[Mr_Zombie]

Yes, but still, considering that in the game Nemesis was a sadistic ruthless murderer that would pursue it's prey even in a blob-like, almost dying, form, and yet in the movie it is not killing LJ because he's of no threat (I was like "WTF?" then) and in the end it turns good... If it wasn't Nemesis but a new monster, I just wouldn't care (Capcom did the same thing with Steve in CV); but in that very moment they have ruined one of the most awesome monster in RE universe :/.

[Jill Lover]

I agree with Darkmoon and Mr Zombie.
Jill in the movie was OK but she didn't do anything significant to mention. That's true. She was just ok, and better portrayed than Claire who could've had another name and you wouldn't have noticed it. So she only has the name...
About Nemesis... well he wasn't human in the game, that's something from the movie itself. Also, I don't remember Nemmy being so emotional rolling tears and . Apocalyse is the weakest from all. I'm sticked with the first one... Apocalypse only had a decent recreation of the opening movie from RE3 and Jill Valentine of course... she deserved more than just that, she was left behind as a background character... and I hated it. Having Alice doing those "amusing" skills... it was good in the first one but I totally hated it in the second one. How would you expect an horror film having someone who can deal with almost anything?

You know, I wouldn't mind to watch a movie called "Chronicles of Jill Valentine" that would kick ass.

[Darkmoon]

Nobody seems to notice that Nemesis turned good BECAUSE he was previously a human being with feelings for Alice. What was left of Matt's conciousness fought the Nemesis parasite enough so that he could save her and kill himself.

I think I heard that in the commentary. Not sure though, but I'm pretty sure what I've just written is reliable.

Yeah, it makes sense. It's still a bad choice, though.

Nemesis was a monster that hunted you, through high and low, thick and thin, and occasionally through walls. To have him beaten down in hand to hand combat and then turned good because of prior memories is...different. And not that logical. Remember, the body of Nemesis is nothing more than a ugly tyrant, when you get down to it. A T-Virus monster. And we've seen plenty of examples of T-monsters killing things they once cared for.

Nemesis is different in that it has intelligence, provided by the parasite. So the bodies emotions should have no impact on the monster anyway.

But, really, the only reason they should never have done it was it sucked. It was a bad plot choice that made Alice look stronger, managing to reach the mind of a monster, and Nemesis lost a lot of credibility right there.

Now...can you honestly say you wouldn't rather have seen Alice have her ass handed to her, her trying to reach Matt...and failing. Truer to the games and a more emotional and interesting storyline. Alice fails, becomming more human, Nemesis gets to keep his sack and all told a better tale that, in the end, doesn't make Alice looking worse because she lost to a combat monster, but makes Nemesis look better and, of course, is just a more fun story.