A theory regarding the Sonnentreppe.

[Mr. Spencer]

Ashfords, Daisies and Nazis oh my!

Now, if this is in the wrong place then feel free to move it elsewhere. As many of you are aware, the BSAA site was recently translated and as such we were granted access to a plethora of new information regarding RE5. What I would like you all to think about right now is the mysterious plant, Sonnentreppe. According to the BSAA site, it's a member of the Asteraceae family. Being something of an avid gardener, I decided to follow up on this and did some personal research.

To be specific, a Mutisieae-like plant. Now I discovered a rather interesting article regarding the early history of Cainozoic Asteraceae along the Southern African west coast, which more or less states that this particular family (Mutisieae) originated originated in the Gondwanan region of southern Africa and South America.

Now, let's put that to one side. The BSAA translation also states in regards to the T-Veronica virus that it was created from a queen ant (which we all know from Code Veronica), but also interestingly enough from a plant as well. Now, the Ashford family were originally intended to be the Kruegers, and this is where the entire theory enters very touchy ground since it's all rather thin. Now, the Kruegers were more or less a Germanic family, with Nazi ties even, which is especially prevalent in the fact that there's an Antarctic base (a popular area for secret Nazi bases apparently) and the fact that Rockfort was more or less modelled after a concentration camp, look at the prison area! That's Auschwitz-Birkenau right there.

Now, where did a significant number of former members of the Nazi regime escape to via ODESSA after war? That's right, South America (i.e. Peru, Argentina, etc) - which takes us back to the article regarding the particular family that the Sonnentreppe might be a part of. So, what does this mean? Well, the 'plant' used in T-Veronica might be the Sonnentreppe (which given the theory would be located in South America, as well as Africa - obviously at some point past the 1960s). This Nazi scientist in the RE5 comics might also be dabbling around with the Sonnentreppe, it all depends on whether we see it in the comics or not. Part of me hopes we do.

It's an immensely weak arguement, I understand that. But it's more of an interesting observation. You know what is amusing though? The fact that the Sonnentreppe is related to sunflowers and the common daisy.

[Darkmoon]

You know, when you say this, it makes the comic sound so much less weak. But I don't give Capcom credit for this kinda planning. If they want Nazi's involved it'll be more likely Spencer is real Hitler after plastic surgery. And Wesker his genetically perfect super soldier son who doesn't know his real father is Spencer and then weeps mournfully when he finds out after snapping the old man's spine.

Then again, the pieces fit. They're clearly retconning T-Veronica into at least a semi important role in RE5 with the plant stuff. It's not impossible. Just unlikely.

[Alexia_Ashford]

There's nothing yet saying a plant was used in the T-Veronica. It's all speculation, Alexia never commented on using any plant whatsoever. Another point is that the Ashfords aren't the Kruegers. They're the Ashfords. Ashford is an English name. We can't theorize on what games might have been, in that case I could make up theories about Elza Walker or RE 3.5.

The Antarctic base was also developed from an abandoned mining facility that Alexander bought, it was never a Nazi camp.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashford_(surname)

[Vector]

Yeah, Spencer, I think you just saved the comics. You should probably e-mail the writers and request a check.

[Mr. Spencer]

You know, when you say this, it makes the comic sound so much less weak. But I don't give Capcom credit for this kinda planning. If they want Nazi's involved it'll be more likely Spencer is real Hitler after plastic surgery. And Wesker his genetically perfect super soldier son who doesn't know his real father is Spencer and then weeps mournfully when he finds out after snapping the old man's spine.

Then again, the pieces fit. They're clearly retconning T-Veronica into at least a semi important role in RE5 with the plant stuff. It's not impossible. Just unlikely.

Or we can go down the Boys from Brazil avenue, and have Wesker be one of many Hitler clones which also ties in with the clone theory in RE5. Those tubes you see? They aren't Jill clones, they're Hitler clones!

Emma, it's on the BSAA website. There's mention of a plant as well as a queen ant being involved in the creation of T-Veronica, it's on the site. Check out the translation. Also, they are the Ashfords but Capcom have recycled old ideas before. Who knows, they might come back and decide to reuse the possible Germanic ancestry of the Ashfords. Don't forget, wasn't there that Code Veronica picture that mentioned a "German laboratory"?

By the way, I must thank all three of you for posting. With all these Jill topics around, I never thought this topic would have a chance of keeping its head above the front page.

[News Bot]

There's nothing yet saying a plant was used in the T-Veronica. It's all speculation, Alexia never commented on using any plant whatsoever. Another point is that the Ashfords aren't the Kruegers. They're the Ashfords. Ashford is an English name. We can't theorize on what games might have been, in that case I could make up theories about Elza Walker or RE 3.5.

The Antarctic base was also developed from an abandoned mining facility that Alexander bought, it was never a Nazi camp.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashford_(surname)

Mr. Spencer was merely pointing out the fact that Nazism was considered before in RE, and if RE5's Progenitor and Uroborus are any indications (both are recycled from RE3.5) it's quite possible the Nazi connection is also a recycled plot point they're using to connect everything together.

And a plant was used in the cultivation of T-Veronica. BSAA site confirms it. Keyword here is cultivation, the plant was most likely the culture catalyst rather than a component of the virus itself.

Infact, the information we have on the Sonnentreppe right now outright states that it is more or less a culture catalyst in the production of viruses and the like.

And he never mentioned Antarctica being a Nazi camp of any sort, it's just most likely a left-over from their Nazi-inspired storyline (in alot of fictional works and even crackpot theores, Antarctica is commonly used as a hide-out of sorts for the Nazis, even Hitler).

[Alexia_Ashford]

Yeah, it's said that Alexia worked for Umbrella in Germany when she was nine years old, before she went elsewhere. I think retconning a whole character's background just because of a possible name she was gonna have is a bit far though.

I don't see any mention of a plant. The BSAA speculate that the genes of a Queen Ant and a plant are inserted into the Progenitor Virus to make it. Alexia herself stated that it is not. Her exact words are that she used an "Ancient virus, found WITHIN the genes of a Queen Ant". She then goes on to say that she inserted the gene containing the virus into the Progenitor virus. Later on she even says she "extracted" the T-Veronica virus from a Queen Ant. She never mentions plants anywhere so speculation on BSAA's part, I'm not going to accept as canon at this point in time as it is just hearsay.

The generation method has become comparatively known, they say the genes of a queen ant and a plant are inserted into the Progenitor Virus.

Comparatively known and boldly stating "someone says" a plant is used doesn't mean it was. Hell, we even theorized that she used plants at one point cos one of her mutations looked a bit plantish. It's interesting, but until someone retcons that file or states that it was investigated and a plant definitely was used, it's not canon in my eyes.

By the way, I must thank all three of you for posting. With all these Jill topics around, I never thought this topic would have a chance of keeping its head above the front page.

No problem, threads like these are infinitely more interesting and thought provoking to me than "Jill has big boobs" topics.

[News Bot]

It's not speculation (it's merely portrayed that way for the sake of drama). And you're forgetting what a culture catalyst is. You don't just combine two things together and expect magical results. There needs to be an in-between.

It's not a retcon, and I'm 100% sure they wouldn't just mention the plant for no reason.

[Darkmoon]

Folks are entitled to talk about boobs, true. I, personally, get laid a great deal so video game breasts hold no great attraction to me but others are free to talk about Jill, and her bosom, if they want. So long as it's on topic of course.

And yeah, the theory is weak. But Capcom seem to be retconning the T-Veronica for a reason. And honestly? This isn't that big a stretch. There were deffinite resembelances with the Rockford Island system and a concentration camp, although I suppose any prison of that nature would have similarities. It fits with what we know so far.

Of course, we do have to consider that Prima Blue may not have gotten the translation quite perfect, but that's another matter.

[Mr. Spencer]

No problem, threads like these are infinitely more interesting and thought provoking to me than "Jill has big boobs" topics.

Thing is, RE5 so far is turning out to be a wealth of information. Yet for the most part, we're not seeing too much discussion about the more interesting tidbits, or information that we've been waiting for a whole decade to find out more about. Like Umbrella's history, the Progenitor, TriCell's involvement, Spencer's appearance, the Sonnentreppe, etc. So much information that's just waiting to be discussed and theorised to death.

But what's going on instead? Endless "discussion" about a single character. It's that kind of attitude that propagates the development of games without a significant plot, it wouldn't surprise me if RE4 was the product of a huge Leon fanbase who didn't give a monkey's toss about what that mysterious fog was that followed him in the 3.5 trailers but rather gabbled on and on about Leon's return. When no-one cares about plot, plot no longer cares to Capcom. It's painfully shallow to talk about one character all the time, when there's so much other - far more fascinating - material out there.

If it's not Jill being the birdwoman, it's Wesker being the leech man. The same two theories I'm seeing over and over again on here. As much of an elitist prick that may make me sound.

[Darkmoon]

Guys, again, no Jill fan bashing. Some of them are a little over the top but, honestly, the big thing has been for a while, 'Is Jill dead and/or is she Birdwoman?' And obviously Capcom wanted it that way, although I suspect to keep us from looking too deeply at some other stuff they don't want us looking at yet.

I know a lot of veteran fans are frustrated with the massive ammount of Jill stuff, especially given the number of times it's spilled into other topics. I know I'm a little fed up with it myself, since I read every post on the site. But if other folk wanna talk about it, and keep in on topic, then that's there right here.

[Alexia_Ashford]

I, personally, get laid a great deal so video game breasts hold no great attraction to me

Yeah, I know what you mean. I don't personally have an interest for breasts in general, videogame or not. Nor would I care if Chris walked around in hotpants in RE5.

I don't think the Nazis have anything to do with the Ashfords and I don't think it'll be used in game either. As for the plant thing, I'm gonna wait till RE5 comes out and see where they try and go with the T-Veronica virus before I continue my studies into the virus further. I know everything about this virus and if they change or add more depth to it, I must know everything. EVERYTHING. O.O!!!!

[Vector]

Even though I think this is a lot of over-analyzing and digging too deep, I appreciate a fresh topic. This is definitely something different.

Yet, I really feel like there's not much to be had here besides a lot of speculation, and speculation that will ultimately not lead to anything in RE5. Do I think Nazis are involved in the overall canon storyline of Resident Evil? Maybe, but I'm not exactly sure. If there is something concrete that I've missed, feel free to correct me. I have to say, though, It definitely would be interesting for the storyline to tie in some real-world events like the Holocaust and Nazi Germany as the true beginnings of Umbrella or viral research itself.

[Darkmoon]

Now, see, THAT is scary level fanboyism at it's finest. Well, fangirlism.

There's nothing to link the Ashfords to nazis yet. But given the semi-offical comics with Nazi guys in them it's not beyond all possiblity.

Although...I think this is the first time I've heard about the Ashford/Kreguer thing and then having been nazi's at one point. Can someone hit me up with more info?

[Alexia_Ashford]

Before their names were changed over because it sounded too much like something from a horror movie, Alexia and Alfred Ashford were originally supposed to be called Hilda and Hilbert Krueger. There's nothing canon saying the Ashfords were ever Nazis, nor is it written in the Ashford Family history.

But this was retconned and they are now the Ashfords; so, nothing more to tie them to the Ashfords than anyone else. Rockfort Island was an Umbrella base, so that really doesn't have anything to do with the Ashford Family themselves.

The Antarctic base was an Ashford base though, dedicated to the Code: Veronica project.